Skarner, I miss your kind

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xangszane

Member

07-30-2013

The cooldown on E will be really important. If it's short, Skarner will keep what makes him unique and keep him powerful. If it's long, I would rather just play Udyr. If I have to get in auto attack range for a stun or slow, I'd rather just take the stun.


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LesLlamas

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
Don't know if you saw this, but it made me warm and fuzzy to know that something very similar to what I suggested in my thread a few months ago (and linked on the first page of this thread) is what you've decided to end up testing!

near the bottom of the OP in this thread: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3241699


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Labcown

Senior Member

07-30-2013

After reading the proposed changes, I'm actually excited about Skarner again.

As a scorpion though, I feel he should use his pincer a little more, and his new E sounds like an ideal to put/keep it. Not saying it should do anything then what it does now, but I think having E's animation be a pincer stab would add depth to Skarner's theme.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xangszane View Post
The cooldown on E will be really important. If it's short, Skarner will keep what makes him unique and keep him powerful. If it's long, I would rather just play Udyr. If I have to get in auto attack range for a stun or slow, I'd rather just take the stun.
I think a 5-10 second cooldown would be good for it. Once oyu get IBG you could do the old perma slow thing, which isn't OP by that point in the game since enemies are grouped mid/late game and you can't safely stick to them without taking huge amounts of damage. Q->IBG slow->E slow->IBG slow-> etc. CD should be closer to 10 sec to account for CDR.


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Noric

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Ok, just read the last changes - much better than the previous iteration.

However, I feel like you are blurring the lines on playstyle difference between skarner and udyr. Previously skarner had less reliable starting cc(pre 6 of course) and a weaker form of cc(slow not stun) but offered the permaslow after a delay(also it was an AoE not an onhit).Furthermore, Skarner had a more offensive shield instead of it just being a utility skill.

Now they will have comparable ways of gapclosing/shielding, similar AoE dps, as steroids built onto damage skills, onhit cc - Even their passives interact moderately similarly. While i would love to see skarner get some love i would much rather he see slow number nerfs while maintaining a delayed permaslow and moving a little power onto e.

(The one thing that i can't argue about at all would be the fringe cases of R - which is QoL he's needed for a long time).


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Tsun Meta Knight

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
The cool down on E and the numbers on E are very important to know.

As it sounds right now on paper, this seems absolutely worthless and really changes nothing. Instead of maxing Q, Skarner will now max E for the same effect, permanent slows.

Explain to me the point of this new Q, if all it does is increase attack speed, which is again, a stat Skarner is not looking for. You're not changing much of anything and simply swapping effects around.

Q should remain as it is and E just need to be reworked completely.


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Roablin

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
An auto attack reset is a neat idea, but I don't feel that it is worth losing the previous functionality of Fracture for. Can you address the concerns of all the lane and AP Skarner players who feel that the ranged poke and heal were indeed very useful?


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Muranodo

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Well, I'm glad you changed your idea behind the last poorly thought out Q change.

This does have more synergy with his baseline kit; I can't say it's particularly exciting since it's basically not taking his theme any further. It makes him even more all-in melee which ties him further to the likes of Udyr. That comes with its own challenges and doesn't really do much to alleviate the issues that have been mentioned: He'll still be very flash ult oriented, he's rather screwed depending on his shield being broken (cooldown/mana gated even with the speed boost), and he'll have to compete with the junglers that have much more free power due to innate mobility creeping. Whereas his slow is now being gated to a third skill for the sake of an attack speed boost...

I assume the idea behind his attack speed boost is to help his clear now that there's a global movement speed boost since boots/3 aren't the typical start which is made to make him catch up a bit sooner so he can go about stinging and hopefully snowballing a lane; I'm not seeing this as the type of change that will ultimately bring him more in line power-wise.

I suppose it protects his perma-slow to a degree; you're still making it conditionally cooldown/mana-gated depending. You're mentioning "smart" choices which always comes with stipulations on every rework that I've heard. So I'll have to reserve judgment; it's making me edgy since it's again seeming more a nerf than an actual buff to the main issues of why a lot of people stopped playing him.

It depends on your intentions though. I know this is a stage where constant changes will come in and out. Is Skarner supposed to remain a more niche jungler akin to Udyr?


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Knight of Right

Senior Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

SPEED! Skarner is average stats, and average moves, speed is everything for Skarner, his ult is funny and helpful, but the main reason to play Skarner is the speed, attack speed and movement speed. SO MUCH FUN!

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Building, if you build him tanky his offensive ability is ****, making attack speed bad, solved by some good items such as Iceborn Gauntlet or Wits Edge, but even that last one adds so little MR and is more for the passive. Hardest part about being Skarner is there are no worth it movement speed buffs outside of boots, and it is difficult to build offensively and defensively when your main focus is attack speed.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

I've only ever fought against him once with how underused he is, I didn't actually have any problems with him though, I always find slows annoying and difficult to deal with, but aside from that, Skarner is easy to beat.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

yes, Lee Sin has jumps to beat Skarner in movement speed and has much faster attack speed, aside from that there are champions who do better with one or the other but generally not both. Everyone with a pull does Skarner's ult better than he does, but most of them aren't speedy so it's np.


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Locke64

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Q
-Hopefully removing permaslow by making the slow only occur on every other Q instead of all Qs after the first. To balance the loss in slow duration here, I want to make it a much stronger slow that decays over time but leaves gaps for people to counterplay. Hopefully this will be fun for skarner players too because they can now make some smart decisions when they want to use the new more powerful Q slow.
I was very upset when I saw "removing permaslow", since that's my favorite part about Skarner, but actually I think this is a pretty good idea. The key is to still make it easy to stick to the target if they don't counterplay. Making the slow stronger with a decay can help with that, and it can also improve the synergy with Iceborn Gauntlet.

Quote:
W
-Increase the movespeed buff so that it is closer to other similar champs like Udyr and Volibear
-Possibly make the movespeed ramp up over time so its not too powerful of an escape "get out of jail free" ability
-Lower cooldown back to 14s from 18s like it was a few patches ago
-Strengthen the shield amount/AP ratios (to compensate for the loss of heal from E)
-Remove attack speed from the W buff
What concerned me about W before was that the MS and shield made it good for closing in but that means the shield is popped sooner which means a shorter (if any) AS boost. Moving the AS to E sounds like a good idea.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
To clarify, the slow will still occur on the second Q.
Yes, I think this is important. It makes you consider your approach when engaging, noting when you can/should pop a q on minions before reaching the target champion.

I don't like your most recent iteration. I prefer the more consistent slow on the q.