Skarner, I miss your kind

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Coach Dubz

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Hello RiotScruffy,

I'd like to take this time to personally thank you for observing Skarner. I am currently Platinum 3 and I have been up to Platinum 1 before. I also currently have a win loss ration of 30 wins and 17 losses with Skarner in this ELO tier. I know Skarner in and out and when I pick him I almost always get flamed. "That champ is trash" "Stupid skarner player, gg" "whelp someone picked skarner we lose" These are common remarks I have received in the recent past.

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

It is very obvious that his ultimate sets him aside from other champions. It is one of those abilities that will force players to buy a QSS just for his ability alone. Beyond this though, I really do love his ability to invade while jungling. His kit (when I say kit I mean Q and W. His E does not even exist to me. Even when I get it at level 13 I still never use it because I don't even think about it) allows for some powerful dueling. His W makes him deceptively tanky since he gets shields consistently.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Although I do feel like he is a powerful duelist; Skarner is easily destroyed if another champion or cc is introduced. A large amount of damage from Skarner is produced from spamming his Q. When there are more champions around or CC his shield breaks almost instantly, and his AS/MS steroid dissipates reducing the amount of Q's possible considerably. Also Skarner is a fairly easy champion to kite. When I play Skarner I often get boots of Swiftness combined with the Ancient golem jungling item. I also get the reduced effectiveness of slows and increased tenacity in the defensive tree. It is STILL easy to get kited because his movement speed steroid is so easy to remove. Mid game it can literally be removed with one ability or attack.

Also another thing I'd like to point out; if Skarner gets ahead he is powerful. However, if he is not successful early in the game he is almost like a loot pinata. Free gold for the rest of the game. He can't really do enough damage to be a threat, and also he is an easy target to get cc'd and nuked down. Many games I find myself forced to buy the boot enchant to reduce the cooldown of flash because the only time I can ult is by flash-ulting and HOPING that they don't do some type of mobility ability that causes his ult to stop casting and the enemy gets away. This happens many times when a champion uses some type of mobility ability, or they go around a wall and lose vision of the enemy champion even briefly while the ultimate starts to cast. It is just so easy to stop skarner from ulting someone unless the enemy team does not know where you are. You can't initiate properly without flash.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

I am sorry but I really can't answer this question. Out of the last thousand games I don't think I've even played against a Skarner. Honestly.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

It's really hard to say that anyone does anything like Skarner. Skarner is a unique champion and I don't really feel like there are any other champions that have abilities close to his. There are no champions in the game that can displace opponents as easily as Skarner can...if he can get a hold of them.


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Twitchious

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'm seeing the feedback about removing the permaslow from Q. It's definitely a loss in power for Skarner, but with the goal of increasing his consistency, it could work out to his benefit. How would you feel about Skarner having a way to activate his slow right off the bat instead of delayed instead of having permaslow?
Seeing you are working around E, adding attack speed onto it and thinking of making every other Q slow. If you could also add if they pop the mark from any source, they are slowed. This would allow a gank pattern of

W > E > Q1 (slowed by mark, Skarner gains AS) > auto > Q2 (slowed) > auto > Q1 > auto > Q2 (slowed)

or

W > Q1 > auto > Q2 (slowed) > auto > Q1 > E > Q2 (stacked slow, AS+) > auto

This would allow for consistent ganks, but remove the permaslow abuse. Would also make him able to combo the possible double slow, or even stack them together for a larger slow over a smaller duration. Would add some cool management to his kit other than MASH QQQQQQQQQQQQQQ. This would also give a reason to max E over W, do you want MS/Shield, or a harder slow on the mark pop plus AS.

Edit: Skarner was my fav jungler in S2, bring him back please. <3


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Zakamaru

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I had a lot of games with Skarner during S2, a few during S3. I believe the changes in items and the jungle hurt him more than being outclassed by other junglers.

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
His ult and chasing someone down with Q. It gives you that feeling that you're going to run them down, they can't escape no matter what.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Getting kited.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
To be honest, none in my opinion. He doesn't have a real gap closer, and his Q needs time to permaslow you. His ult is nowhere near OP, because he needs to be right on top if you to use it. At that point, it becomes more of your own positioning.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Zac, J4, Xin. They have gap closers with the ability to CC enough for your team to come in and blow them up.


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BaneDraconus

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Belated thanks to RiotScruffy for noticing the threads and wishes of the Skarner faithful. Here are my thoughts from a player who joined near the end of season 3.

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Grabbing and disrupting the opponents position, the former fear just the thought of you running out of a bush at the enemy team, the ability to deal constant damage through Q and items

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Little to no champion damage, despite having one of the highest base attack stats, his E felt unreliable as a source of damage or sustain, W broke too easily


• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Permanent slow, threat of being dragged away to your doom.


• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
There are others that can be tanky, few that can displace/disrupt, none that do both with his slowing capabilities.


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Archlord Azezo

Member

07-30-2013

My post in mainly going to focus on what I see as skarners problems on dominion.

Top lane, there is absolutely zero reason to take skarner top, No gapcloser no CC no Disengage and no poke.
I don’t treat W as a gapcloser because good luck running at 3-4 champs and not getting kited or CCed, plus with its long cooldown if you use it wrong, your practically useless for the next 18 seconds. Almost every other champ brings something better to the table. (J4 brings poke CC gapclose, ECT.) Ult is great but you won’t have it for the first few essential fights.

Bot lane there is little incentive to bring skarner there because opponents can take one of three options to beat him which almost all the popular bot choices can do.

out sustain, dominion has -20% healing so good luck sustaining off E vs. a lee sin or something plus most likely only 3 minions at a time and you’re not going to put points into E early anyway.

This was partially balanced out in s2 with executioners cheap 18% LS little extra dmg and grievous wounds.

Out trade,

when W is down your essentially at the mercy of your opponent, lacking a gap close and poke means most ranged champions can whittle you down over time. (Diana Urgot Kayle Jayce AD malz ECT) sure you can hit minions but Dom minions hurt, and your probably in harass range.

Was less of a problem when at 14s but 18 is just too long.

If you’re getting out played then fine Skarner needs counterplay.

And out kit.

Yorick. Nuff said.

Urgot's level 1 shield costs 5 less mana has 10 more shield 2 second lower cooldown and slows greater than your MS boost and lasts a second longer, adding his passive and the fact he is ranged what do you do against that?

Diana’s shield has equal shield at rank 1 with no AP assuming she gets the refresh (your melee so yea she is) and is only 10 seconds. Plus once again ranged poke. Can be beaten with skills I think but haven’t actually tried.

Most knock backs in the game that are not ults, have at most an 18 second CD (Vayne has 20 at rank 1, 18 rank 2, Draven Jayce Syndra Janna) so I have to use my essential gap close W get knocked backed poked, and by that time the shield is probably over if not shattered. Oh and they usually get lower CD with ranks unlike Skarner.

Slows, Skarner is also unfortunately very vulnerable to slows because an equal MS slow is greater than an equal MS buff. Nasus Nunu and Kayle all have a strong slow with a close or lower cooldown (Nunu can ice ball you 3 times for every W on average plus his MS buff)

Now you can dodge some of those which fits in with outtrading-outplaying, but jayce nunu vayne and kayle for example are targeted, what counterplay options do you have? Run at them again with no shield eating free dmg?

Now what are his strengths?

He hurts if he can actually reach you, the problem comes from his mana hungry kit, he needs the permaslow to effectively 1v1 anybody not a squishy, this allows for passive to actually kick in and deal enough sustained dmg to hopefully win the fight. Usually goes OOM early game. Sure relics give mana but unless your controlling 2 of them, that’s not really an advantage.

Lategame he is really strong. With a full build you have a really tanky skarner with high dmg, and usually a larger mana pool and a good bit of CDR and LS allowing him to outduel a lot of champions that don’t fit in the categories above.

With ult and on a point you should win most 1v1s and even a good amount of 1v2s

The main problem is getting there, and more often the not it takes a lot of effort for a result that may not pay off.


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LordOfUmiverse

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Do not touch his w ats, please!!!


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Robo19

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Alrighty so Skarner is on the chopping block; lets cut him into pieces and take a look!

So to say Skarner's job is a tough cookie as he is flexible which is a good thing! I've seen him played Tanky and several AP builds that mix damage, utility, and overall durability; as for his JOB...

Utility and CC: So his ultimate being his strongest CC, I'll start here.
Suppressed for 1.75 second(s) and relocated.
If skarner is slowed, distanced moved is DRAMATICALLY reduced.
Suppression is countered with Summoner spells, Banshee vail (N/A), and Silver Sash (and the like).
Skarner is vulnerable to other CC while pulling.

That being said his job when ganking from jungle is to jump on the over extended target (this is a difficult task as his movement speed boost is only 13-25% and thats quite a bit lower than Udyr who has a similar problem catching enemies. Lets face it for junglers, movement speed is a less-than-average gap closer. His CC isn't bad (if he does close that gap) 20-40% slow however it takes 2 casts of your Q which has a flat 3.5 CD. Without any CD reduction that requires the target to be within touching (1-2 auto attacks reduce CD by 1.5 seconds average) leaving an average of 2 seconds. In 2 Seconds a champion can move from enemy turret to 1/2 way to their own (assuming outer turrets). Now this isn't too terrible HOWEVER they need to be IN YOUR FACE distance from you and the slow only lasts 2 seconds giving a 2:2 on/off CC. This is "ok" CC, though even tryndamere has better CC (actually Trynd's CC is pretty good).

The shield is nice but there are better shields like udyr's turtle with a super low CD (verse Skarners wopping 18 sec cd though its gives more buffs than the shield it still would need less CD for the SHIELD viability).

Then we get to FRACTURE; this is possibly the least useful skill in all of league of legends, the damage isn't bad and it really is skarners ONLY range; however the heal is a joke compared to ANY jungler with a heal/sustain. Overall it's only use is damage which really isn't all the great. (when combo'ed with a crystal scepter this can help with getting early CC on the enemy champion increasing the effectiveness of your gap closer however you almost feel required to buy it and if you haven't gotten a few kills from ganks already, it's a far cry from a core item).

Back to his ultimate; it has many factors that can hurt the effectiveness of this ult but with such a low-tier gap closing skill it is VERY difficult to land it on the desired target.

Skarner does not have the durability to just "run into" the enemy team and pull the ADC (unless they are caught out of position) so in reality you pull who every you need to "keep out of the fight" (lets face it, his pull isn't no Blitz/thresh); it doesnt suppress as long as say Warwick or Lissandra; and his overall damage output is lack-luster compared to other champions unless built for it (in which then he can forget about using that ult on a carry).

Suggested changes: (there are so many)
Rework Fracture (E) from ground up; forget the heal and give him some more durability or CC OR break up his W's passive into his E such as:
Skarner deals magic damage to all enemies in a line and marks them for 3 seconds.
If Skarner damages a marked target (consuming the mark) or Fracture kills an enemy, Skarner's Attack speed increases by Y for X seconds. (number of marks irrelevant, or you can have additional marks consumed increase duration by 0.5 seconds). Also increase the AP ratio on his E. This would let pure-AP skarner's use the skill as a TRUE harass / Burst but not change too much for Tanky-jungle skarner.

With the attack speed boost off of skarner's W, you can probably get away with half-ing the cooldown on skarner's Crystal Exo (W). This would allow for a more "go in, and get out skill" also this would greatly help his late game durability as cooldown syncs well with durability items allowing a Diana effect of having a shield on demand for late game.

His ultimate needs some changes though this is an area I can't imagine what to do; it seems so sensitive that even a numeric value change would either set him to overpowered verse his current state.
The best idea I could think of would be giving his ultimate a Yi-ult immunity to CC (slow) however allow him to be stunned/snared so that counter play isn't out of the question but he can at least not feel ripped-off when slowed just before or during his ult (so many exhausts).

Thank you for your time.


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RAMpageStarcraft

Junior Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
The most fun thing about playing skarner is when the enemy team dosent have a hard cc to disable you, so you can ghost shurelias and pull the enemy adc or mid into your team.
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
The most frustrating thing about playing skarner is when the enemy team has a knockback and it destroys your effort to get them.
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
The most frustrating thing about playing against skarner is that if he can get near you and he has teammates around you are essentially dead.
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
I would say there isint a champion as uniqe as skarner because of his odd ultimate it allows teams with shorter ranged burst champions to be extremely effective ex. graves annie swain simply because he can nullify the inherent weakness of them having to be close to the target to deal damage.


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Ensign

Senior Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

Picking someone off with his ultimate is incredibly satisfying. It is definitely the high point of his kit.

The raw amount of havoc you can cause in a team fight. There aren't a lot of other characters that really fill the AoE bruiser role, and Skarner is a ton of fun when you can wade into the other team and crank out a lot of AoE damage and slows.

A lot of the skill of playing Skarner is in the same skills that make you good at league in general (knowing when to engage, who the priority targets are, how to position, etc), and when you outplay someone with Skarner you are rewarded more than with many other champions.


• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

His mana is putrid. In the jungle you only level his Q and W because there's no way you can afford to pay for 3 skills. He's so mana hungry that you'll run out of mana in team fights unless you're building max mana, even when starting from full.

He is a very farm dependent champion. He cannot do his job with just a Golem Spirit and Bulwark. If he doesn't get a couple early kills off of ganks he's going to feel useless. The jungle gold nerfs hit him really hard.

Having your ultimate flashed / blinked out of. Catching up to Nidalee and having her hop away while your ultimate goes on cooldown is one of the more egregious examples, but everyone can do it with Flash.

Personally I do not mind being pre-kited or targets flashing away (outside of them breaking the ultimate); that is the weakness of a character with so many strong tools to lock you down once engaged, and struggling to catch and hold slippery targets is the fun interaction he brings.


• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

He has the Frozen Mallet / Wither problem. His slow and speed can prevent you from escaping, so if you get even a bit behind he can turn a bad trade into a kill, and after that you don't have a chance. Since he has great sustained damage and a quickly refreshing shield, he's an excellent duelist and standing and fighting against him doesn't go well either. If Skarner gets ahead, he ceases to have much counterplay beyond hanging out with your team under a tower - and even then his ultimate can get you.


• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Not really. You can find hard initiate in Jarvan and Zac, or better grabs from Thresh and Blitz, and strong AoE teamfight bruiser from Hecarim, but no one else offers a similar package.

He isn't outshined. He's simply weak - between the jungle changes, itemization changes, and nerfs, he frequently is too weak to do his job without getting a big early gold infusion.


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NeoLethePIE

Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

-pulling somebody into your team
-healing from fracture
-ap skarner
-auto attacking

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

-crystal slash requires 2 hits to slow/requires to hit someone on the way
-crystal slash requires 2 hits to be effective using ap skarner

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

-single target ult like that is bound to be frustrating

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

-vi and nautilus because of more reliable engages as the range is substantially larger

EDIT: Just read the current intended changes and I really hate removing the heal from fracture and giving it the AS boost from w.