@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

First Riot Post
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Eleshakai

Senior Member

09-10-2013

@Lyte:

Quote:

We've known for a long time now that we want to notify players about the
effectiveness of their reports (and to thank players for using the report system
correctly to improve the community); however, it's just an issue of pragmatism
for us. It's a feature we'd love to do one day, but it doesn't surpass the
priority of something like Champion Select.
Please don't. The last thing I want is to know whether someone I've reported has been punished. It feels like such an invasion of privacy - I have no right to know(it's like when I make a complaint about a waiter's performance in a restaurant - I don't want to know and I don't DESERVE to know if they've been disciplined), and even worse... it is REMINDING me of the negative experience I had which I'd probably already forgotten about and moved on from.

This seems like the worst thing you could possibly do from both a reform perspective(if someone gets disciplined, will they really be inclined to reform if they have the shame of potentially hundreds of people KNOWING they were disciplined?) and from a privacy perspective. Please don't do this.


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Kinperor

Junior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
A player recently mentioned this idea to me, and I thought it was pretty interesting; however, what is the intended goal of such a feature? Theoretically, the hope is that if a toxic player is verbally abusive or harassing someone that the pop-up or feedback that others in the game have muted them would curb or stem the behavior; however, is there a chance that the pop-up or feedback itself would frustrate and piss the player off even more? Maybe the player will vent even harder at other players that haven't muted him yet.

Consider the current alternative: Right now, players can mute someone without sending them a pop-up or notification. A toxic player might continue venting or ranting and realize that they aren't getting a response, so they stop and move on--there's a chance they may learn that venting or ranting really doesn't do anything valuable for the team. But if you give them feedback and notification that they are getting through and annoying someone, maybe the pop-up or feedback even encourages them to keep acting this way and treat the pop-up as a "victory" of sorts that they irritated someone so much they actually muted them.

Now consider an alternative scenario: What if you're a positive player, trying to hold your team together with some sportsmanlike chat. Then this player gets a pop-up from a toxic player saying that they muted him--what does that player experience feel like?

Interesting idea, but lots to consider.

I thought it wouldn't be as simple as that. (I am not sure if it was clear, but I want to precise that I meant the notification would be sent AFTER the match, not during it)

The basic reasoning I had with this idea is that it's kind of an alarm for whoever has been muted, a reminder that they just did something that wasn't cool. Unlike a report, he is told quite soon that what he said didn't make him any friend, as opposed to waiting a couple of reports (that may or may not come) and more hissy fits before getting a behavioral alert. I guess we could really say it's just a mini-behavioral alert in a way. That would be the intended goal.

As for the consequences on the "notified": If the match is long over and he can't remember the name of his team mates, the notification isn't as much reinforcement to his behavior, no? I know that it could be a "victory" for the abuser. But, I think if we can remind 8 out of 10 temporarily-toxic players that venting or abusing his teammates isn't cool (even on impulse of the moment) and get you muted, we can afford to have 1-2 players that screen cap the notification to use as a prize. Let's be frank, even bans can be worn as a "prize" for some people.


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Stupid Jungler

Senior Member

09-10-2013

So, your champ select solution. Before season 4 or at the start of it?


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Doct0r Phil

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Senior Member

09-10-2013

@Lyte

I have an honest question about muting and reporting players. Why is it, that I can still get placed in matches with players that I have has muted and reported? I can't tell you how many times I have played a game with a truly toxic player, ended the game (after reporting them and muting them), and then end up BACK in champ select with them.

This is something that seems to never end well. It already sets a terrible start for the next game. My morale is already crushed, because I know that this person is either having a bad day/game OR he/she is truly toxic (either or sucks). Often times, the toxic person will make a comment in champ select about how I'm a "noob" or am "bad", which in turn can cause my team to now lose morale as well.

I understand that allowing us to not que with muted and reported players may increase the que time, but.....

1. I (and many others) feel that this would be well worth it. It really stinks to be playing with that person that ruined your game recently.

2. You could have a time set, where we would be allowed to be placed with that person again (so it wouldn't be permanent). For example, if I mute or report someone, I am not placed in champ select with that person for 3 days. They would still be muted and reported, but I would at least have a set amount of time to where I would know I would be safe from them again (and also, my memory of that game fading and possibly even forgetting who they are). You could also set a maximum limit of how many players at a time you can "avoid" in champ select. Something like 10 players or so. This would help prevent abuse cases where people just constantly mute/report every player that didn't play well.

Is this something you guys have talked about before? Is this something that can be implemented?


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Yisery

Junior Member

09-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
You also have time pressure making the Champion Select situation quite hostile as players try to discuss team strategy while a looming count-down timer is ticking.
Maybe I'm not the first but this just popped though my head: Why don't you add a chat to the load screen? Sometimes that screen is long and the time is pretty much "wasted" (I use it to browse the web), so it could be used for team communication.


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TheGame438

Junior Member

09-11-2013

I dont know if the idea was posted already but i got some recent issue in champion selection whit trolling/toxic player.

Can you add a feature to vote-kick someone in champ select, 4 must vote the 5th player out.

I had so many game were someone was trolling or was toxic even before the game started and i didnt whant to dodge the queue to get LP, droped from promo or just having to wait 5 or 30 min to log back in cause 1 player was already toxic to the team.

Whoul it be realistic to have something like that implimented, like surender vote 4/5 people need to vote for it. Instead of waisting everyone time and having a bad game due to someone toxic behavior having the toxic/trolling player getting removed and have him get the pennality of dodging a Queue.

I know people might abuse that but i find it hard to make 4 people vote out 1 person if she is not cleary trolling/toxic before the game start.


I also like to know if it is possible to include an option or feature in the sound option of the game to mute PING sound from a player. I had a game whit someone chat restricted and he pinged non stop for 25 min, had to mute my game sound and lost all other sound or the non stop ping whould had drive me crazy.

thx


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Ginga

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Senior Member

09-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post

We're working hard on Champion Select because of the exact issues you are mentioning. There's several factors about Champion Select that are less than ideal right now, including having players in the same game who have different expectations (play to win versus play for fun). You also have time pressure making the Champion Select situation quite hostile as players try to discuss team strategy while a looming count-down timer is ticking. We can't wait to talk to players about our plans for Champion Select; to be honest, the entire player behavior team is excited because they want to use it and play with it in game.
Yes I've been feeling the full brunt of this effect the timer has as of late. I think I ended up laning as junglers multiple times simply because I couldn't think of what to be as first pick while the time was about to run out. But it's always after I lock in a jungler, the person later in the pick order complain about how THEY wanted to jungle, and refuses to play another role. In all these cases, they didn't say a word till 2 seconds after the timer was up. In all those cases I asked from the very start I asked if anyone wanted to be ___ role. No one says a word.


But I feel time limit isn't the only problem in this case. We have 40+ seconds to pick a champion, and nearly a minute of banning time to also discuss our roles whilst banning. In all of these cases, the people who ends up costing the team the game are the ones who do not say a single word until it's clearly too late. I feel there should be something to FORCE players to communicate with each other. If only to prevent these situations.


I don't know what you have cooked up, but if you can solve all those gamebreaking situation I've described above (including this piece of work), then I sincerely look forward to it ASAP.

PS - if, and when you do finally implement whatever you have for Champion select, could you notify all players via an email? Some players might have chosen to avoid LoL simply because they were sick of situations like these, but planned on coming back if you fixed it. Others are on the edge.

PPS - On an unrelated note do you have statistics of AFK's and D/C's? Have there been a huge spike of leavers this week(Sept. 9-15)? I took note and in 7 games, I counted 4 of those seven games where my teammate left. 4 is not a huge number, but that is a significant chunk of games I play. Because I refuse to believe I'm just that unlucky. I specifically made sure all the past games that my enemies had all players intact too. So it's clearly not happening to everyone.

PPPS - increase that number of afk to 5 please. To show how little Tribunal acts as a deterrant, this person even dared us to report him before disconnecting. The reasons people have been leaving Ranked games have been increasingly petty as well. From not getting blue buff to having less kills than enemy team.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

09-16-2013

Can you reveal what the ratio of reports is in losing games vs winning games? Every so often I will get a player who's been reported more often in winning games because he will trashtalk the losing team, but the more likely case is someone raging when their team lost. Similarly, I'm sure that winning teams give more honour than losing games, since I've fallen prey to that as well. Can you reveal the exact numbers in each case?


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EvilTreeSpock

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Senior Member

09-16-2013

I have a suggestion for the Honor system that might help see more usage that I think has a good balance for people who would want to start handing out Honor for this "reward." Simply, whenever someone you have given honor to has received a border ribbon in the honor category you gave them, you will see a message saying "You honored 'Summoner #1' for their excellent "Teamwork" in games, thanks in part to your recognition, 'Summoner #1' has been rewarded with the Ribbon of Teamwork for his honorable actions."

I like to give honor out, especially in ranked games where I find a lot of very nice people, and I would like to see that my honor has been helpful in someway of someone deserving of honor. A message like this would make me feel as if I was making a difference in recognizing someone for their actions. Going off of your cookies idea, what if you heard that the cookie you gave some random person helped them out in a meaningful way like winning a game. I would feel great about that.

While it may dishearten some people who give out honor yet don't receive much (I think a good 1/3rd of my honor are from bot matches) and don't have a border of their own yet, the good feeling that people who are legitimately and honestly honoring people would continue to do so, and those who are truly deserving of honor will eventually get a ribbon. The message would be a simple one time thing, you wouldn't get a message if they lose their ribbon or get another one back. It wouldn't be stored on your client for you to track. It would be one of those small warm fuzzy feelings you get when a random stranger does something nice for you like holding a door open or letting you cross the street first even if they had right of way.


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Keskintilki

Senior Member

09-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We're currently working on a new solution for Champion Select problems, but are doing research on Honor and where we want to take it in the future. We agree that usage has gone down, although there's still a very healthy amount of Honors handed out in Normal Blind Pick, Co-op vs Bots and Howling Abyss; however, there's less Honor being handed out in Ranked Teams and Ranked (partially because premade teams don't often give each other Honor). We're not ready to talk about the future of Honor yet, but we'll start once we finish working on Champion Select.

I don't agree that discussing the origin of toxic behavior is an excuse. I agree that damage has been done whether a player is having a bad day or whether they are consistently toxic; however, understanding the origin of the toxic behavior allows us to better address the behavior. For example, does a player who is the most awesome, positive player in the community for 9999 games and happens to have 1 bad game, should they be permabanned? This is an extreme example, but illustrates why understanding the origin of the toxic behavior can help us address it in an appropriate way.

We have considered different types of 'punishments' for players such as limiting queues or limiting IP, but right now we're focusing on Champion Select. We've also taken a pretty drastic shift in our approach to player behavior over the last year, and we'd prefer rewards and incentives rather than punishments. As an example, let's say we had a game where players could share cookies, or be selfish and eat all the cookies themselves. We'd prefer players to share cookies, but instead of punishing players for being selfish and eating all the cookies, we could reward players with an additional half cookie if they shared the cookie with others. We truly believe that if you make it easy for players to be good and do the right thing, they do.

We're not resistant to simply implementing solutions, especially with Leaver/AFK. There's just a lot of data and experience from other games that solutions like a Vote-Kick are extremely abused and often considered grave mistakes when the studios tried them. I generally prefer to go with the data, and not make the same mistakes over and over again
First things first, *giggles like a little schoolgirl* YAY!!!! a red responded to me.

Now that that's out of the way.....

Understanding the origin of the toxic behavior won't help stop it, I don't even think it will help curb any of it. It's not as if your team can implement a solution similar to DUI solutions, where you have to blow into a breathalyzer and PASS before you can start your car. I do agree however that a permaban for the player in your example is a bit too extreme. I never intended my thoughts to be seen that way. What I do believe would be a good solution is similar to what I do with my team (I work in a corporate environment). When someone makes a mistake, especially if it's a huge mistake, they are given a "verbal warning". This simply means that you are making them aware that they have made a mistake, it in no way shape or form effects their evaluation, all it does is say, "Hey, that thing you did earlier, it had a negative effect on everyone, so please try not to do it again."

Would you thing this is a good idea?? Say someone gets reported for whatever, prior to going into tribunal for punishment they are made aware that they are skirting the edge of some form of punishment and now would be a good time to reform. (As an example lets say it take 5 report to go into the tribunal for a first offense, at the third report they would get a message saying: "Careful with your in-game (insert report reason here), you are having a negative effect on the player-base and are in danger of getting punished.)

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but I don't believe your utopian idea of "given the chance everyone will be nice and share their cookies" is realistic. I'm aware that positive re-enforcement is usually a good way to change a person's behavior, but what if that fails??

As for the Leaver/AFK idea, I hope you find a good solution for it, as THAT may actually be a very large contributor to the behavior seen in game. Think of it this way, someone is not having a great day, so they decide to play some LoL to relieve some stress. Low an behold, there is someone who intentionally feeds/AFK's. It's true we don't know why they did it, so it wouldn't be proper to severely punish them for it (especially if its their first occurrence in a while). But think about what that does. It basically causes a butter-fly effect, and creates another "troll", which in turn may exponentially create more.

Which is better?

Immediate reaction to the initial troll, even if it's a first offense (to be clear I'm not saying PERMABAN), or a snowball effect where it will ruin even more player's games. Even if there is a chance of abuse, that happens with everything. If it's made clear that abuse WILL NOT be tolerated, I think it will curb that playerbase fairly quickly.


Lastly,

Here is something to think about, and I'm paraphrasing one of my favorite quotes.

"It is better to be feared then loved"