@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

First Riot Post
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Notrich

Senior Member

09-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson View Post
So do I still have to continue the game, offer up a token amount of resistance to suffice as a punching bag for the opposing team as I get cc-locked for 15 more minutes just so I don't get reported/punished too?
yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson View Post
So the question is. Can I stop playing a game that is utterly impossible or unfun to win with and instead go do something else more rewarding like playing with my cat
no - you can not play with your cat - your cat plays with you


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson View Post
, or must I stand there, click buttons and take it because i'm locked in?
yes


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messypuddle

Member

09-05-2013

@Exekias @Lyte

When you use the chat bans, it can limit the ways toxic players can affect their teammates, but I'm wondering.
Have you looked into the affects of trying to group chat banned players together for games. We have all seen the in game trolling and raging that doesn't require chat. Have you guys considered trying to group the chat banned players together for games? I understand that this could require a lot more work for the servers to seek out chat banned players specifically for games, but I'm wondering if you guys hypothesize that
A.The results would be a general removal from the general populous + time to cool off with the chat ban or
B. The Toxic players will feed off each others toxicity and instead of cooling off with the chat ban will grow more toxic and act out in non chat ways.

Have you guys had a chance to look into this?


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ChaosBloodterfly

Senior Member

09-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by messypuddle View Post
@Exekias @Lyte

When you use the chat bans, it can limit the ways toxic players can affect their teammates, but I'm wondering.
Have you looked into the affects of trying to group chat banned players together for games. We have all seen the in game trolling and raging that doesn't require chat. Have you guys considered trying to group the chat banned players together for games? I understand that this could require a lot more work for the servers to seek out chat banned players specifically for games, but I'm wondering if you guys hypothesize that
A.The results would be a general removal from the general populous + time to cool off with the chat ban or
B. The Toxic players will feed off each others toxicity and instead of cooling off with the chat ban will grow more toxic and act out in non chat ways.

Have you guys had a chance to look into this?
They've said "Prisoner's Island" doesn't work, because of B. I mean, we already get mountains of "I don't belong at this elo" bull****, we don't need "I don't belong with these trolls".


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Neahkahnie

Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Exekias View Post
I agree that the bike analogy gets a little less strong when you consider permanent bans, but the intent of the analogy was to address how players might reform their toxic tendencies. I agree with you that permanent suspensions are a poor tool for reform and that is why they generally serve as a last line of defense to protect other players from toxicity. A permanent ban is not meant as a “you messed up on this account, try again.” Instead, it’s more of a “we’re sorry, but your continuing negative behavior just has no place in our game.”

In terms of reform however, we agree on using Restricted Chat more and are always thinking about the possibility of using other punishments in a similar vein. As you mentioned, these features actually give punished players a good chance at realizing what they did wrong and how they can improve in the future.
Guess what,

If some kid repeatedly jumps on his bike and starts riding all over the place hitting old ladies and running over toddlers, and all he's got to say is "Hurrhrr... look what I did durrhurrhurr". Then guess what: His dad takes his bike away. Maybe he can try again when he's older and has learned more civilty and respect for others, but for now he's DONE.

The problem now is too many warnings. What does it take? 9 or 10 temp bans before someone is out permanently? Pathetic. No other social environment would allow such ridiculous behavior repeatedly.

The rules should be simple: If you treat others in a way that would offend and anger them in face-to-face interaction then expect consequences that would mirror those in real life. The Internet's anonymity is not a shield to protect you from the social repercussions of your words and deeds.

This problem will continue until there is a clear, fundamental expectation of behavior with swift punishment and reward.


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PapaShongo53

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Exekias View Post
I agree that the bike analogy gets a little less strong when you consider permanent bans, but the intent of the analogy was to address how players might reform their toxic tendencies. I agree with you that permanent suspensions are a poor tool for reform and that is why they generally serve as a last line of defense to protect other players from toxicity. A permanent ban is not meant as a “you messed up on this account, try again.” Instead, it’s more of a “we’re sorry, but your continuing negative behavior just has no place in our game.”

In terms of reform however, we agree on using Restricted Chat more and are always thinking about the possibility of using other punishments in a similar vein. As you mentioned, these features actually give punished players a good chance at realizing what they did wrong and how they can improve in the future.
I think the analogy works fine with perma-bans. If you fall off your bike a lot, often and hard, you run the risk of permanently damaging your body to the point you can't ride a bike.


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Krimson

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notrich View Post
yes


no - you can not play with your cat - your cat plays with you



yes
Then I suppose the trolls will always have their weapon


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Kulas02

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neahkahnie View Post
Guess what,

If some kid repeatedly jumps on his bike and starts riding all over the place hitting old ladies and running over toddlers, and all he's got to say is "Hurrhrr... look what I did durrhurrhurr". Then guess what: His dad takes his bike away. Maybe he can try again when he's older and has learned more civilty and respect for others, but for now he's DONE.

The problem now is too many warnings. What does it take? 9 or 10 temp bans before someone is out permanently? Pathetic. No other social environment would allow such ridiculous behavior repeatedly.

The rules should be simple: If you treat others in a way that would offend and anger them in face-to-face interaction then expect consequences that would mirror those in real life. The Internet's anonymity is not a shield to protect you from the social repercussions of your words and deeds.

This problem will continue until there is a clear, fundamental expectation of behavior with swift punishment and reward.
I'm sorry that you believe that arguing and blaming is ridiculous behavior that is not tolerated in the "real world". I think you might want to go present that to your congressman, politicians, and while you are at it all professional athletes, lawyers, etc.

I'm sorry that not everyone who plays this game is candy cains and unicorns, but if everyone were exactly identical this would be a pretty boring world. Lets put this in a pretty clear picture. League can and is a competitive game for some. A game true, but competitive. What does competition give? Adrenaline. What does adrenaline give? Increased metabolic activity throughout your entire body including thyroid activity, which ultimately leads to - you guessed it - aggression!

Should this be used as an excuse or crutch? No. But for people to blindly think it has "0 reason" for being in a game is just absurd.

Now, there is a difference. Arguing and blaming is one thing - which still if it goes on in a game you see the words "report X" fly around all too often. Verbally abusing is something completely different.

The problem with the community, is we aren't adults enough to understand the difference. Everyone blames the "young kids" for ruining the community, but the "adults" aren't doing a thing to help.

Young kid : Why did you dive his tower and give him a free kill? Wtf was that?

Adult : Toxic players are toxic, reported and muted.

^This scenario has happened in probably 5 of my last 20 games. 25% is way too much. But alas, we resort to report now for ANYTHING that is deemed "negative", and then the word "reported" gets thrown into chat like above, and they are just egging the kid on.

Permabans should be reserved for those players who are downright awful. The "go kill yourself, i'll f*** your mom, I wish cancer on your family (hmmm...), etc." Permabans should not be given for being banned 10 times for arguing. Your an argumentative person, so what? As long as you aren't extremely abusive, just slap on a restriction for a while so they can't argue back, and then maybe they will just get bored with it. Maybe not. This is where I think the Rioter's who issue the permabans need to step up the game a little. Some permaban's I've seen are silly. Yes the person is negative, yes they argue, yes they go OMG NOOBZ GG, and yes, they have been banned 57 times before. We get it, they argue, they call people noobs, omg its a computer game! Those people should be ignored and moved on, restricted if need be, but not permanently removed from the game just for being annoying. The truely abusive players are the ones that need to go.

.02c


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Neahkahnie

Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulas02 View Post
I'm sorry that you believe that arguing and blaming is ridiculous behavior that is not tolerated in the "real world". I think you might want to go present that to your congressman, politicians, and while you are at it all professional athletes, lawyers, etc.

I'm sorry that not everyone who plays this game is candy cains and unicorns, but if everyone were exactly identical this would be a pretty boring world. Lets put this in a pretty clear picture. League can and is a competitive game for some. A game true, but competitive. What does competition give? Adrenaline. What does adrenaline give? Increased metabolic activity throughout your entire body including thyroid activity, which ultimately leads to - you guessed it - aggression!

Should this be used as an excuse or crutch? No. But for people to blindly think it has "0 reason" for being in a game is just absurd.

Now, there is a difference. Arguing and blaming is one thing - which still if it goes on in a game you see the words "report X" fly around all too often. Verbally abusing is something completely different.

The problem with the community, is we aren't adults enough to understand the difference. Everyone blames the "young kids" for ruining the community, but the "adults" aren't doing a thing to help.

Young kid : Why did you dive his tower and give him a free kill? Wtf was that?

Adult : Toxic players are toxic, reported and muted.

^This scenario has happened in probably 5 of my last 20 games. 25% is way too much. But alas, we resort to report now for ANYTHING that is deemed "negative", and then the word "reported" gets thrown into chat like above, and they are just egging the kid on.

Permabans should be reserved for those players who are downright awful. The "go kill yourself, i'll f*** your mom, I wish cancer on your family (hmmm...), etc." Permabans should not be given for being banned 10 times for arguing. Your an argumentative person, so what? As long as you aren't extremely abusive, just slap on a restriction for a while so they can't argue back, and then maybe they will just get bored with it. Maybe not. This is where I think the Rioter's who issue the permabans need to step up the game a little. Some permaban's I've seen are silly. Yes the person is negative, yes they argue, yes they go OMG NOOBZ GG, and yes, they have been banned 57 times before. We get it, they argue, they call people noobs, omg its a computer game! Those people should be ignored and moved on, restricted if need be, but not permanently removed from the game just for being annoying. The truely abusive players are the ones that need to go.

.02c

You read waaaay to much into my post. You might be surprised, but I agree with you. When did I say simple arguing and blaming was the problem?

This is about serious personal harassment, bigotry, and more importantly, intentionally destructive game play (aka feeding, afk on losing teams, etc). All of these things are totally unacceptable in the real world and needs to be banned out swiftly with very few warnings.

A few kids and/or adults arguing happens -in real sports and online games. No one is asking people to get banned for that.


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Devare

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Lyte, would it be possible to do a week of testing where the chat for both in game and lobby were completely disabled? I mean when there were chat issues in the past for lobbies etc people seemed to just fall into roles with ease not to mention toxic behavior was pretty much non-existent. Now I know your counter to that point would be "League is a team game and you need to communicate in order to succeed." However with the recently updated ping system and the natural order of 1st-5th pick people would better understand what is required of them for the better of the team, and communication via pinging can still be successful.

Also (I highly doubt this would ever be done), but any chances of Duo Queue being removed from ranked play? I know it is nice to play with friends and all, but if you want to do that wouldn't that be what normals are for? People can 2-4/5 man premade all they want there and there. Not to mention for ranked it removes a given advantage to a team just because they have a duo queue.


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Kulas02

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neahkahnie View Post
You read waaaay to much into my post. You might be surprised, but I agree with you. When did I say simple arguing and blaming was the problem?

This is about serious personal harassment, bigotry, and more importantly, intentionally destructive game play (aka feeding, afk on losing teams, etc). All of these things are totally unacceptable in the real world and needs to be banned out swiftly with very few warnings.

A few kids and/or adults arguing happens -in real sports and online games. No one is asking people to get banned for that.
Then you are correct that I read too much into it, and apologize for that. I agree that extremely toxic individuals are not needed, however, people are getting banned for being argumentative or calling people noobs, trash, bad players, etc. While annoying, it can easily be avoided with a mute, rather than removing a player from the game. The problem is every individual wants riot to solve the toxicity problem. They don't realize that by reporting someone for being annoying, rathernthan just muting them, they are only adding fuel to the fire.

Permanent bans need to be reserved for the severe cases, threats, excessive verbal abuse, etc. Not for name calling, arguing, etc.