@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

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Whohangs

Junior Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I agree with you and Ginga, there's more we could do to address / reduce the impact of Leavers on the other 4 players in the match.

I think LeaverBuster does a decent job against the Leaver, but I'm open to more discussion around what we can do for the other 4 players.

Hi Lyte,

Thanks for these great discussions!

I think there's two different AFK/Leaver situations. One where somebody doesn't load at the beginning of the game due to PC, internet, or client crashes and the second situation where somebody disconnects (or rage quits) after the game has started and is already well underway.

I think the one that should be addressed first (and can probably be addressed more easily) is the first situation where a player doesn't initially connect to the game. If somebody doesn't connect before the 2-3 minute mark, the team with the leaver should be able to abandon the game (via vote or some other mechanism) without penalty and the AFK/leaver should be penalized heavily (auto-reported, queue ban and/or IP/LP loss).

If I happen to be the leaver, I would rather receive the penalty than have my team go through 20+ minutes of having me be far behind due to my technical issue (and probably a 20+ minute toxic situation where I am constantly blamed for the loss). I know there's situations where the disadvantaged team can still win (I've been involved in some), but I would gladly trade those rare situations for the vast majority of horrifically one-sided games that occur, saving everybody time so they can get another game.

I have a job and kids and only get a handful of games in every night, getting one-sided games caused by someone not connecting is one of the more frustrating (and probably preventable) situations in League for me.


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Exploding Barrel

Senior Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Snicklefritz View Post
Additionally, if not everyone connects before the game starts, a cross-team vote will take place to end the game before it even starts. But here's the kicker: if you disable chat and the ability to see what your teammates bought during this pause period, you eliminate the ability for either team to determine who is still connected and who isn't. There are ways to circumvent this (if everyone is on skype together), but I would guess that that wouldn't be the case the majority of the time.
This is interesting, but flawed if the players involved understand the situation. There is a 4/9 chance that the dc'd player would be on your team, and a 5/9 chance that it's on the opposing team. So the odds are in your favor if you choose to play the game out. The "correct" choice then, if your goal is to maximize your chance of winning, is to continue the game.


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Talagon

Junior Member

08-28-2013

I haven't played LoL for any real length of time, but I guess here's my 2 cents worth.
Since this game is strictly pvp why not have it like CoD where if a person DC's bring one in that's waiting. Of course there would be restrictions to make it fair and yet a gamble at the same time. Maybe even go as far as role picks ADC, support, Toplane, mid, Jungle then have ppl select a role before que.
EX) say you can only get a new player within the first 5 min then if no one is found issue a mercy vote for forfit, the player in que would have to get a notification if they would like to join a game in progress, if yes then have them pick a champ/runes/masteries etc then join the game, do NOT let them see who was already picked to limit counters. Since players would aready have picked a role just exclude the champs picked in that role to pick from.
there's fairness from this because of the bans and not being able to see the other teams full team comp.

I know it would be a HUGE overhule but that's what I would do.


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Someone From EUW

Senior Member

08-29-2013

To improve the loading screen even better:

You have removed the ping of other players, and I think that's good, but you also removed the QoL vision of the loading progress. Even though you removed ping to reduce flame at start of the game, you still show every player's progress. This can easily be solved.

- Remove the progress % of all players except yourself
- Make one progress bar which shows the progress of the slowest loading person. How to do this? Simple. You keep track of every person, but you only show the % (with a bar for visual please) of the slowest loading one, without showing who this person is (only the person himself will know since their personal speed will be the same as the game loading speed). If someone stays at 0% for a while and then suddenly load fast to 100% while someone else is still at 50%, the load bar will follow the progress of the 50% guy as soon as the others have higher. I hope you understand what I mean. It's the best solution for both problems.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

08-30-2013

Hey Lyte, mind if I ask a hypothetical question to test an idea out?

A team gets a troll player who decided to screw around and play jungler Vayne. The team is understandably stressed out and confused about whether the Vayne is just trolling or if it's just a joke. In the end Vayne really DID opt to be a jungler, the entire team's comp is in disarray because half the team didn't think he'd seriously troll in a Ranked game, the other saw it coming. The game went as well as you'd expect and everyone reports the troll.

Now here is my idea. Once the Troll does get his comeuppance months later, that player should lose 5x(5 player team) the LP/win and IP for that game's lost, and 4/5 of that amount should be evenly distributed among teammates. This way, losing a game due to a troll or leaver won't be nearly as toxic for everyone because IF the tribunal does it's job right, they should rightfully get all their lost points back. Less stress=cooler heads=less toxic players.


What do you think of that? I KNOW your first thought would be that people would be encouraged to report spam the weakest player in their team every single game, they would start every game with a "report ___ for ___" please at the start of every game where they have someone they dislike. But if you really think about it...NOTHING CHANGED. People are ALREADY harsh to the one player supposedly losing the entire game for the team(whether it's true or not makes no difference). People ALREADY spams "report ___ please". Can you really say that an idea like this would encourage toxic behavior when it's already set to overload?


In my opinion, once you're at the bottom, there's no where to go but up.


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Ziln00bas

Member

08-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
In recent years, the industry has really branched outside just games and looked for experts in relevant fields. Game studios have been hiring mathematicians and statisticians, economists and psychologists, and even anthropologists and sociologists. It's a really exciting time to be in the games industry because in many ways, the data that you have access to in games is beyond anything in a lab. In fact, I truly believe that for decades to come, some of the most fascinating findings in many of these fields will be from games.

For the player behavior team, we've been using a lot of predictive modeling and machine learning for some of our systems. These techniques are only going to become more valuable with time in this industry, and by the time you graduate, the industry will be fully supportive and 'bought-in' to the idea of hiring outside expertise into games.
Tangent: are you very familiar with the World of WarCraft Corrupted Blood Plague incident and related academic research?

If you reply, a tweet to @MShaneman would be helpful (a link would be sublime).


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Pruck2

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Senior Member

08-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I agree with you and Ginga, there's more we could do to address / reduce the impact of Leavers on the other 4 players in the match.

I think LeaverBuster does a decent job against the Leaver, but I'm open to more discussion around what we can do for the other 4 players.
Let's think simple.

How about you implement a "all loss falls on the leaver" rule, but also a more enforced ban system for bullying, especially if it shows that they generally do it to get out of losses.

Stop protecting criminals and hurting the fair players. Just start being WAY more harsh, and it'll stop happening. Also, less time between actions and bans would make the system way more effective. It's like psych 101.


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Ziln00bas

Member

08-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Smurfing isn't officially endorsed by Rioters.

It's something we are actively doing research on and trying to address. We agree with some reasons to smurf--such as to make a new account to play with a brand new friend; however, we'd like to make it easier to do that instead of encourage players to smurf.
This reminds me of an idea I had: allow players to flag themselves as I Play Competitively or Play for Fun. Add this as a matchmaking criterion. The idea is that these two very different attitudes toward the game are often incompatible and cause friction due to clashing standards (or expectations) of play skill and 'seriousness'. (Make the default setting I Play for Fun). It won't guarantee these two types never meet and clash, but it could greatly reduce the frequency.


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Ginga

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Senior Member

09-02-2013

Hey, mind if I give a tiny suggestion?

If a person is NORMALLY well-behaved, as in he doesn't have an extensive record of trolling or afk-ing, how about give them a chance to write a written letter of apology to a teammate who reported him? Those who are apologized to may have the chance to accept it or not. If they do, the penalty for whatever they've done is halved. But if not, then they get punished like normal.

If multiple people receive the apology, if even ONE person rejects it, then the person gets punished as normal. Would this help improve player behaviour?


Obviously this shouldn't happen immediately after the game when bad blood still exists, but a bit afterwards when everyone's cooled down.


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Killrmouse

Member

09-03-2013

Hello, I've been playing since a little bit before season 1 worlds. So I'm not the MOST experienced league player, but I've seen the game change and develop considerably in my time here, and I must say that the community has improved considerably.

I had a game last night where someone was seriously being abusive and toxic to my teammates and really made the game so unbearable that it seemed like we all just gave up and started making silly plays. It was frustrating (it was my friend's gold 1 promotion series, so incredibly frustrating) but I got through it, and I did what I usually do when I get annoyed at the game: I went to the tribunal to spend some time doing something else while simultaneously working to help make what I just experienced less frequent. (Note: I don't let my frustration impact my judgement there)

Anyways, I was thinking to myself while I was doing this how frequently I used to get these types of games when I was first starting. How yelling at a feeder almost seemed to be a part of the game back then. And how nowadays it almost never happens (at least to the same degree as it used to). I guess I just realized how far we've come away from your typical online game full of childish people waiting to use excessive profanity into more of a sporting community looking to have fun and improve. There could be confounding error here because I've been climbing the latter, and the people in higher ELO's might be in higher ELO because of their dedication to doing better and not flaming. It's hard to tell...

But yeah, I've watched one of your videos, Lyte, where you talked about what am impossible task it is to take an environment that's naturally pretty flame-filled (like an online, competitive game) and try to make it hospitable using methods such as the tribunal, honor system, and the loading screen/ingame "priming". I honestly think all of these things are pretty brilliant, and I want to say good work. You and everyone you work with on it deserve bacon sandwiches.

One suggestion, though: I noticed, when the honor system came out, that there was an incredible influx of good behavior in players (people were trying hard to get honor). It was pretty much a straight month of just everyone being super positive and supportive of one another. People saw the idea of a reward for good behavior, and jumped at it, significantly improving (in my opinion) the social quality of the game. However, it seems that the rewards have gone... Stale? Idk. It seems like people aren't all too interested in them and don't really give out or look to receive honor anymore. That could just be my experience, but going off of my experience, I would say that perhaps if you could switch up the rewards some, or do something to keep it fresh, it might significantly improve the game's interplayer interactions.
So... My idea: Perhaps you could make it so that there's a weekly "quest" that comes out with the free champion rotation that involves the honor system. For example, you could make it so one week people are challenged to receive 10 honorable opponents, and are given some form of reward if they do (maybe a small amount of RP, or an achievement or something). I think doing this would keep the system fresh and keep people in that mindset that I thought was so prevalent when the system was first introduced.

(Something like this could also be done to help people improve their play. For instance, you could set a quest where people are challenged to get 100 cs by the 10 minute mark in a custom game [Thanks, Preak, I heard about this from you in one of your streams, and this type of practice really improved my game. It's probably a big reason why I'm in gold right now, if I'm honest.]. So it could be used to as a kind of automated coaching service to help people see how to get better at the game.)

I also have a few ideas for minigames that could be (I think) easily implemented as practice scenarios to help people just joining the game get into the hang of it or help experienced players get better at things that are difficult to practice (smiting, for instance). I don't want to get into them here because this post is already on the fringe of becoming a novella, but if you're interested, feel free to add me in game.

Final thought: Thanks again for all that you've done to make this game as good as it is.