@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

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Tr0utp0nD

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Possibly letting us know the detected reason for disconnect/leave. For example letting us know if their client timed out vs they went into the menu and actively kicked the leave game button. Not all disconnection reasons are detectable. But for the ones that are, letting us know may guide us better if we press that report button.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

08-26-2013
93 of 107 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tr0utp0nD View Post
Possibly letting us know the detected reason for disconnect/leave. For example letting us know if their client timed out vs they went into the menu and actively kicked the leave game button. Not all disconnection reasons are detectable. Bit for the ones that are, letting us know may guide us better if we press that report button.
This is something that I actually encountered playing StarCraft 1: Players would simply unplug their Internet cable (or disable through Windows, whatever), and get a "Disconnect" instead of a Loss. So while this is definitely detectable, it's not entirely reliable. Certainly you'll catch *some* rage-quitters, but it's easy enough to fake an Internet outage that I'm not sure it'd be effective. Maybe an incremental improvement is worth it though.

Lyte, is it reasonable to track something around KDA or streak of deaths, or "difference in team gold/kills/turrets", and assume intent behind a leave? Someone who disconnects at 0/5 is more likely to be a rage-quitter than someone who never connected at the start? Or track language used by the player leading up to the disconnect? Maybe past reports (They tend to be a jerk?) Maybe this allows us to flag leaves as "intentional" versus "unintentional"?


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Shmookpup

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Yo Phreak


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Sir Snicklefritz

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
LeaverBuster does a decent job of punishing Leavers who leave intentionally; however, we're always going to have a small % of games have a Leaver that either disconnects because of ISP issues, weather issues, or some other unintentional cause.

What kind of ideas do players have to address both kinds of Leavers?
How about this: don't show the names or loading percentage for everyone on the loading screen. Maybe show one percentage which is a combination of the whole group. Once that's done loading, the game starts as normal.

If one or more people don't connect, load the game up for everyone else but keep the game paused for a little longer to allow a little bit of extra time for the disconnected player(s) to reconnect. Allow people to buy stuff in the shop, change settings, etc. This will give disconnected players a chance to get back into the game while still allowing the other players to be somewhat engaged as opposed to waiting on the load screen.

Additionally, if not everyone connects before the game starts, a cross-team vote will take place to end the game before it even starts. But here's the kicker: if you disable chat and the ability to see what your teammates bought during this pause period, you eliminate the ability for either team to determine who is still connected and who isn't. There are ways to circumvent this (if everyone is on skype together), but I would guess that that wouldn't be the case the majority of the time.

The penalty would be similar to a dodge (maybe more severe since they wasted more time?). The reasoning for this is that they already knew the team comps (at least for ranked/draft normals) and could have left earlier for similar consequences.

Edit: A cool additional feature could be added such that the team that didn't have a leaver could opt to queue up together as a team in the same queue they were in if they enjoyed each other in champion select. I know I would be pissed if the enemy team had one person down, we quit the current game, I queue up again, and then get stuck with a team raging at each other. This would kind of create a paradox that there would be a premade team in solo queue, but initially they weren't a premade, so I don't see a problem with it since the team would only be available for one game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post
In this case, I feel more effort should be put into repairing the damage done to the players missing the teammate rather than focusing on the leaver.
I tend to agree with this thought process. What more is there to be gained from a marginally better punish system?


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Ginga

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
LeaverBuster does a decent job of punishing Leavers who leave intentionally; however, we're always going to have a small % of games have a Leaver that either disconnects because of ISP issues, weather issues, or some other unintentional cause.

What kind of ideas do players have to address both kinds of Leavers?
LeaverBuster certainly punishes the leavers, but it does nothing to salvage the damage done to the players already in the game, worse, it punishes players for reacting naturally, leaving a competitive game that has become unfair. And that I believe is one of LoL's bigger problems up there with the toxicity of MOBA's.

I remember your justification for not having a "You may now leave without Penalty" or giving perks to teams missing a player because you were afraid people may bully a bad player into leaving. But the thing is...players doing poorly already ARE getting harassed to hell and back even without the incentive to do so anyways. In the hypothetical scenarios where this system exists and people do in fact get abused into leaving, those individuals could just stay in the game and simply report his abusive teammates. Eventually wittling them down. Nothing changes at all as players having a bad game are ALREADY being told to uninstall or end their own life.


But if that truly is that big an issue for you, then how about something specifically for disconnects that are out of the player's problem?

If a player does not enter the game before the first minions spawn, the team with the missing player should be allowed to leave the game without any penalty!


Too many games are lost by a person that has never once connected into the game at all due to whatever issues. If the player does come back, he'll just be a deadweight that feeds enemies kills, and may even face a load of verbal beating from his understandably upset teammates in a Ranked game. In this case, can you make those games an exception then? If by the time minions do spawn, and the player hasn't connected, give the teams the ability to leave their game without penalty.

In my experience, while a late-comer may still have it's uses, it's more often than not a lost cause already. LoL is a snowball-y game, comebacks are rare enough in a fair match, let alone a 4v5 one. So even if that person has a chance to log back in 10 minutes into the game, there's already a huge disadvantage placed on the team, ruining the competitive spirit of a Ranked game.


The strengths of this method is this.

1) It won't increase the number of verbal abuse to make a person leave, as people are doing it anyways in champion select when they want to try to make "that one guy" leave due to whatever reasons. If a person wants to leave, he woulda left during champion select rather than in the middle of a load screen or in-game where his penalty will be much higher.

2) You won't have those "4 people bullying 1 bad player into leaving" scenarios ingame either, because this will only apply to players who never entered the game at all. If said player comes in 10 minutes after the game start, there's no incentive in bullying him as players could simply leave an unfair game without repercussion.




Some people say it sucks for the team of 5 that the game they've been waiting for is instantly cancelled and they get nothing for it, but how do you think it feels for the team of 4? Does the team of 5 honestly deserve the IP/ELO if they win a 5v4 to begin with? I would say not.

Now the problem my solution doesn't address is the chronic d/c-er who disconnects during several instances in the game. As well as the d-bag who leaves out of spite and the rage-quitter. In my opinion, LeaverBuster isn't enough as it does nothing for the players stuck in the 20+ minute game. If it's a Normal game, it's annoying. If it's a Ranked game, it's outright rage-inducing to lose so many points so unfairly. Doesn't matter if you eventually win those points back if you're good enough, because all those victories are nothing more than repairing the damage a leaver has dealt.

So what ideas have been floating around in regards to intentional leavers and rage-quitters? LeaverBuster merely saves future games from them, but they do not address already ruined games.

Quote:
Lyte, is it reasonable to track something around KDA or streak of deaths, or "difference in team gold/kills/turrets", and assume intent behind a leave? Someone who disconnects at 0/5 is more likely to be a rage-quitter than someone who never connected at the start?
In this scenario, the player with the 0/5 score may not have rage-quit, but rather he genuinely had his connection knocked out. That poor performance was due to an already suffering connection and the disconnect was inevitable.

In this case, I feel more effort should be put into repairing the damage done to the players missing the teammate rather than focusing on the leaver.


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Killius

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
LeaverBuster does a decent job of punishing Leavers who leave intentionally; however, we're always going to have a small % of games have a Leaver that either disconnects because of ISP issues, weather issues, or some other unintentional cause.

What kind of ideas do players have to address both kinds of Leavers?
Well I must be getting stuck in almost everyone of those small percentage of games. I suggest longer time bans on the leaver buster, I actually am not sure of what they are since I have never fallen to that sort of punishment but something along the line of 48+ hour time ban, it sure would make people think about leaving again.

Or and I just thought of this, how about a rating system for players. You would start at a zero balance and based on performance, honors, reports, afk's, win and losses your rating would fluctuate. At that point you could use the rating for matchmaking, leaving the toxic with the toxic and good players can rise to the top. It's seems like a sure fire way of separating the wheat from the chaff meanwhile encouraging players to improve their rating. I for one could not stand having a negative rating. I really need to flesh out the details but I really think this solves some of the larger issues plaguing the game.


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WarlordAlpha

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Maybe past reports (They tend to be a jerk?) Maybe this allows us to flag leaves as "intentional" versus "unintentional"?
God no. There's a reason Tribunal and Leaverbuster are separate.

I might get angry in game, but I do not ragequit. Just because I don't know how to keep my mouth shut doesn't mean I'm lying about League crashing (which happens with shocking regularity), Windows restarting in the middle of a game, or my internet dropping out or something.

I'd be wiling to bet that there's a small percentage of folks who are toxic AND ragequit. In fact, I bet the folks who DO ragequit are LESS likely to be reported for harassment, because instead of flaming their teammates all game they quit the game and walk away instead.


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Tr0utp0nD

Junior Member

08-26-2013

I think realistically the only situation we can really hope to make an improvement is the situations where all players don't connect to the game from the start. In that case I'd like to see numbers. For example games where its 4v5 from start what is the percentage of games where the disadvantaged team wins? Same case for 3v5, if 99% of 3v5 from start end in a loss for the disadvantaged team is it worth just ending the game in a draw and count the leavers as queue dodged.


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FatMansRevenge

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
LeaverBuster does a decent job of punishing Leavers who leave intentionally; however, we're always going to have a small % of games have a Leaver that either disconnects because of ISP issues, weather issues, or some other unintentional cause.

What kind of ideas do players have to address both kinds of Leavers?
I think that having some sort of upper limit on pings would be a good place to start while playing PvP matchmade games. Make it so that you can't queue up for a game if your ping to the server is sitting higher than 350 or something like that.

Perhaps being able to view your own ping before queueing up would also be beneficial. I know that I've played a lot of games recently that if I had known my ping before the game started, I never would have even hit that "Play" button.

On the other side of the coin, with rage quits and AFK/Leavers; I don't know how much data you guys actually collect during a game, but if you do collect enough, perhaps some sort of script that checks a leaver's chat logs against commonly used words and phrases of toxic players, or that checks a leaver's KDA, towers, tower assists, dragon assists, and other useful stats.


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Tolinar

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
(They tend to be a jerk?)
I take huge issue to this idea; this is ambiguous, really ambiguous. In terms of "they tend to be a jerk", I can be very obtuse when trying to help my teammates play better. I will specifically call out mistakes they make, very vocally let them know when they screw up, and EXACTLY how they screwed up.

Yes, I suppose that qualifies me as a jerk.

I would never intentionally leave a game. This idea is treading on thin, gray ice.