@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

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matrinox

Senior Member

08-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Mathematically, Elo/MMR Hell doesn't exist. We've done analyses over millions of players and players tend to always reach their 'true MMR' after about 150 games of Ranked; however, for a small number of players it may take up to 1000 games to reach their 'true MMR'--this is part of the problem and something we are trying to fix. Rioters like RiotSocrates are continuously working on the matchmaking algorithms to place players into the appropriate tiers even faster so that no players have to play up to 1000 games to reach their true MMR.

The second problem with Elo/MMR Hell is that we're dealing with a lot of cognitive biases. We once did a study that suggested that the average player believes their true MMR is 150 MMR higher than their current rating; it reminded me of a study I read where they surveyed an office and the average employee rated their performance as 'above average,' which is also statistically impossible.
Exactly. Elo hell is just psychological. It's the belief that you're not the reason you lose games, it's your teammates. It's utter irresponsibility. Most people who claim they're stuck in Elo hell deserve to be there by the way they play and treat LoL as a single player game, like CoD treats multiplayer. It's a team game! You're not in Elo hell, you created a hell to make sense of your losing streaks: it's not you, it's everybody else.


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Mpuls

Junior Member

08-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanac View Post
Riot, one thing causing toxic behavior in this game is your League System. I know this because I have been guilty of bad behavior myself at times and I'm normally not. Example, I have been stuck in Silver 5 0 LP since Jan. I know people will reply with (l2p, or you belong there) but this has nothing to do with me. I can own my lane, have great farm, but still lose because bot lane decides to feed the enemy adc 10/0 by 15 mins. How ever I can handle bad play, I play bad some myself. But this is what the problem is. Past few nights I have won 3 games in a row 2 times. Gained 30 points. Lost 1 game and dropped by 26 points. This is causing me to lash out at my team for bad play. I have over a 50% win ratio, 50.6% right now, I was at 53% before I hit silver. Then started losing every game I played cause of feeders and afkers. But even over 50% I lose 3-4 games worth of points every loss. I can't even be happy going win-loss-win-loss cause it means I'll be stuck at 0 lp forever. I have to win like 8 games in a row before having a loss, and then if I lose 2 in a row I'm back where I started.

I'm also S5 being matched with B2 and lower players, sometimes B1 and S5. Vs B1-S4 players. This is not fair when in a team game my team is collectively worse then the enemy team.

I put 100% into every game I play, and I bust my butt to play good. But when my team is worse then my enemy and I lose no matter how much effort I put into a game cause my team chases an adc and gives him a quadra (yes this has happened, 1v4 and he won) I start to get ragey, and I'm going to end up being banned one day. It's not fair for those of us trying hard to get punished cause of those who don't really care.

The league idea is great. I enjoy the whole climbing the ladder thing. But this hidden elo is what's causing so much issue, and I know a lot of toxic behavior.
I'm in B4 dealing with the same thing you are. I win lane and/or gank other lanes successfully, then somebody derps hard and throws the game. I've thought the same thing about the League system here recently, but then I think, "What if I gained/lost the exact same LP every game?" The idea behind the point difference (at least IMO) is that by making a loss more impactful, the players with the highest win rates end up in the highest leagues. For instance, one of WildTurtle's accounts in challenger had a 200+/90 w/l record. A 60% or better win rate is what the truly good players achieve, and they are rewarded with a high ranking.

Meanwhile, we in the Bronze, Silver, and even some Gold experience bad teammates or just do bad ourselves. Therefore, if we don't win more than 55% of our games, we really don't advance. If the LP gained/lost was the same, a win streak would promote somebody to a division they may not belong in. I went on an 11-win streak from B3-high B2, then lost 2 in promo. Since I haven't been winning more than 55% of my games, I keep falling. The LP system is designed to keep potentially bad players out of the higher ranks. Even though somebody may be able to compete occasionally at a Gold level, they do not necessarily deserve to be in Gold permanently.

My friend has spent the 8 months I've been playing this game moving from Silver 3 to Diamond 1, and is now back down to Diamond 5. He's really good at Syndra, but doesn't play any other champs if he can avoid it. So since he plays at a D1 level (maybe even challenger, I've seen him stomp some of them) on Syndra, but doesn't on other champs, he's at the bottom of Diamond, essentially where he belongs


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Nomsumer

Senior Member

08-11-2013

Elo hell is overall higher odds of experiencing teammates that have not learned a basic fundamental of the game like Zoning, Mini map awareness over time, Champion matchups, Being aware of situational dmg potential etc... It is the lower end where the dynamic range per game in skill and ability level are higher. Something that is inevitably the case. I don't know that afks are higher there, but the probable gaps in applied experience are simply more likely to be evident in higher frequency. When a solo lane has some big gap like map awareness or zoning and the plunge your team, it is a more substantial climb. In theory this is certainly more plausible.

Add in Duo Queues negative inevitable affect on an otherwise solo Q measurement system and it is hard to reason the reward vs time spend grinding the bad rolls. Yes it is equal per team in potential, however at lower end the dynamic range of possibilities are simply a lot higher and therefore the results far more volatile and perceivably frustrating. = ELO hell. I am not an advocate of the concept despite what it may seem like. I understand its presence as an function of the system I believe. It however does tell me that a FAT X of my games spent in Solo Ranked without a duo are likely to be wasted hours. That in itself is sufficient deterrent.

Edit: 1000 hours @ an average of what per game to have a system place you effectively speaks of a slow system. It is great to hear someone working on it, that said, has anyone thought of breaking Ranked into 2 parts? Clearly if the mass is at the bottom, and it is ugly at the bottom where the majority of people you want happy are, denominate a little more? Separate Diamond+ levels from the hordes. Give them a reasonable set of brackets that will coax them up out of the depths, after which they can play the other upper level division. This currently is so damn ugly. You lose players on their lack of interest in wasting their time on the odds in the overly dynamic bronze and silver. Give greater range for your highest populated brackets and then transition into the less chaotic upper reaches. It will give more of your players a greater sense of place as well as progression, that you can also incentivise more based on denomination progress, therein promoting perceived progress and reward even when battling the odds. You separated the top most bracket in a sense already. Why not add another? If the vast minority are upper gold to diamond+ why not put a more apparent division between the vast majority and those that climbed past. It will incentivise as well or better as it is another distinct benchmark, while allowing the majority to get attention where now they get next to nothing. Giving you a lot of room to expand the lower end into something that will approach the vast majority of your players more directly.

P.S. Added further to 47 explanation to include and express my thought better. Still an issue in method of keeping track... Its there somewhere. Tho you guys may have something great coming. Would be fantastic. [will revisit more soberly to address editing, I do not however think that the concept of ELO hell can be entirely dismissed, as it does reflect the systems various parts.]


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2009cheesepuff

Junior Member

08-11-2013

I am very happy that you guys are trying to do what you can about cleaning up the community. Shows us that you care.(not that I ever thought you didn't )


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DoublingRainbow

Junior Member

08-11-2013

D= Lyte! You're honor count really isn't all that high! Go play some relaxing Co-op versus AI games and tell some jokes while you lay waste to all the enemy bots. They're much more likely to honor you than the anti-social ranked players. =3


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ZeagaX13

Member

08-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
"The Science Behind Shaping Player Behavior in Online Games"
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/191262/
This was so interesting I didn't even notice the 24 minutes I spent watching it.


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A Giant Boulder

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Senior Member

08-12-2013

Only cross linking thread for reference and context, not looking for posts or bumps.
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...4#post40638184

Quote:
If this is the case, I would at least rather drop to gold, where the system apparently thinks I belong. I hate their "You never drop tiers", I don't feel rewarded being stuck in plat 5 but playing with golds. At least if I was playing with golds, as gold, I would fit in. Do you know how humiliating it is to be the sole plat player in a game of golds? If I'm doing well, I get trash talked by the enemy for having poor mmr and playing with them. If I don't do well, I get trash talked by my own team for being elo boosted or whatever else. Riot, Lyte, have you guys considered what you put some players through with your new system?

What's even more ridiculous, is I "dropped down to gold" by winning more than I lose, not only that. To recover my mmr and get "back to plat" I am probably going to have win a ridiculous number of games. Just to get back where I was and have already proven to the system once I belong to be.
Please Lyte, I really wish you guys would look into toxicity spawned from the now all to easy way of looking up players via lolking, lolnexus or what have you.


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Phragasm

Junior Member

08-12-2013

@RiotLyte Why is it that all of my friends and I who are platinum 1 only gain and lose around 5/6 LP at most. It's quite frustrating to play 50 minute games and only get 3 LP. I don't ever lose more than I gain so I don't think it's because I have a lower MMR than my division. Could you explain the math behind this?


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Saint Latona

Senior Member

08-12-2013

Hey Lyte, mind sharing with us the Tribunal 2nd year review like you did for us for its first year?


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ayankynamedclay

Member

08-12-2013

JOIN US ON FIREHEARTS TEAMSPEAK SERVER Firehearts.typefrag.com:4115 WE are a SMALL community JOIN WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A RAFFLE WHEN WE REACH ENOUGH PEOPLE