@Lyte - Player Behavior, Matchmaking, and Life as a Scientist

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CaesarFlickerman

Senior Member

07-28-2013

I didn't read EVERY post here, but I did see some select ones about Tribunal chat logs and queuing. I guess I'll weigh in.

Tribunal chat logs need to be WAY MORE specific. Pre/post game. When someone died, who killed them, what items they bought, what items they sold, when x tower went down, when the inhib went down, when dragon was taken, baron, when x person was on a kill streak, when it ended, and so on and so forth. Right now, the chat is absolutely WAY TOO ambiguous for something that holds this much weight. It also needs to show who queued together to circumvent the 4 man troll queue nonsense.

Speaking of the grouped queues, even though a lot of people do ranked in duo queues and play regular games in trios or quads, some of us here cannot stand it. It's antifun and toxic to the overall team progress, so there needs to be an opt-out for grouped queues. That way, the people who don't care can still queue as they see fit and hope for the best, and the people who don't like playing with groups can still get the experience they want, even if they have to wait 30 seconds longer than normal.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamsOfGrandeur

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
We've talked about whether we want a true Solo Queue in the past, but when we looked at the data a large number of players play Ranked in Duo Queue, and only play Ranked because of Duo Queue.

Regardless, this is more of a question for RiotSocrates.
I don't think that there being a high number of premade-users is an excuse to not create a "true solo queue".

Personally, I think there should be 3 queues so everyone can decide what they really want to participate in.

Solo-only
Solo or Semi-Premade
Premade 5v5



Additionally, you should put some seriously consideration into how a lot of players probably Duo Queue specifically because it's the most commonly believed way to win.
The popular notion is that solo queuers can't be trusted to carry you or work together, so a duo is recommended to improve overall coordination while not being as much of a hassle as 3 or 4-man premades.

This popular belief is likely to skew your data greatly; especially regarding the individuals who ONLY play ranked via duo-queue.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PurpleYukari

Senior Member

07-28-2013

Hey Lyte, hows it going. Been watching your talk and on the tribunal forums a bit. Here are some questions for you:

1. Have you considered doing an algorithm that analyzes what players say in chat, and gets them to the tribunal faster if it senses toxic speech? It would use a learning algorithm, and look at the vast database of tribunal cases and pregame/in-game/post-game chat. Of course, this algorithm will not prevent a player from getting into the tribunal (otherwise people could potentially skirt the system). A simpler algorithm could detect players with an abnormally high number of deaths for the amount of time they weren't afk. And maybe look at summoners/item builds. The only problem I see with this is that it can be hard to distinguish between newbies and intentional feeders.

Also, people seem to keep posting about non-tribunal related bans on the tribunal ban inquiries thread. I think its because that forum has "ban inquiries" in the title. Any way to resolve this?

Additionally, could behavior alerts be unnecessarily freaking neutral/positive players out? There are all these posts on the forums where a player is a little freaked out because they got a behavior alert.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kelhan

Senior Member

07-28-2013

About leavers/AFK in ranked:

- Reduce LP loss for the team with leaver/AFK.
- Increased LP loss for the Leaver/AFK.


Ever thought about it? (Probably yes), Then tell me why it wouldn't work in conjuction with the leaver Buster system? Doesn't, with both of these solutions instored at the same time, allows players who had to struggle in an unfair matchup lose less and the offender being hurted a lot more? Thus not inclining someone to leave the game for the team and reduce LP loss?

Thank you, have a good day


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamsOfGrandeur

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
It all comes down to pragmatism, and what we believe will have larger impact on player behavior in League of Legends.

Adding pre/post game chat logs to Tribunal is X positive value, but the Tribunal only targets and affects the worst, most toxic players on a particular server (which is approximately 2-7% of players, depending on how you define the toxic players). However, if we analyze Champion Select, a large, large number of games have arguments or toxicity that originates from Champion Select. If we solve this particular problem, we'll see value that is easily 10X or 20X the effects of adding pre/post game chat logs to the Tribunal.
I think the notion that pre/post game chat logs only affecting the most toxic players is highly flawed.

A major factor here is popular belief.

A substantial amount of people won't report because they know full-well that pre/post-game chat logs aren't included.
And equally so, there are toxic players who will restrict their unsavory verbal abuse to the pre/post-game chat.


Correcting these problems would have the misunderstandings resolved immediately, resulting in very swift reductions in pre/post-game verbal abuse. (That includes Champion select arguments!)
This means the "X" your data suggests may very well be 5 to 10 times greater.

Additionally, if you want to talk about pragmatism, then I want to hear your thoughts on the effort-required-to-solve. Effort-required seems vastly differently here. (imo)

Solving chat logs, a purely technical project, is equal to A, while Champion Selection, an extensively psychological, technological, and UI-related project, is equal to 10(A).

Thinking pragmatically, it would make more sense to pursue the 5(X) for A instead of 10(X) for 10(A).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SlightlySuicidal

Member

07-28-2013

I read every Lyte post here. I was expecting this to be about the high elos all getting loaded smurfs.

Did he not touch on the big elephant in the room or did no one ask it?

What was the purpose for high elo players getting fully loaded smurfs and stomping some low skilled players? Was this your doing or someone elses? There were rumors about a player behavior study. If it was a player behavior study, did you find out anything worthwhile? Was there another way you could do it?

@Lyte

He probably won't touch this though


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Ghost Orchid

Senior Member

07-28-2013

Hey there Lyte. I'd like to share a little story with you.

I'm not a particularly toxic player. Have the Santa Baron icon, have run the gamut of ribbons and what not. I'm not the greatest player, but I always try my best to win and I don't think I've ever raged or at least not verbally in game. At worst, I've probably 'fed the trolls' when someone's acting out/beginning to rage.

I recently took a break from the game for a couple weeks and within four games of being back, one game had an AFKer and in another, an ARAM, I got called an idiot for not doing the ideal thing at the right time and then got called out for being bronze. Haven't played since.

I like the game, but man, where's the incentive to come back when that's the kind of thing I have to look forward to? It becomes hard to justify to myself playing a game and spending money on it (currently sitting on 5k rp) when this is what I get.

I know not every game has toxic elements, the first game I played back, a dominion, all the players on both teams were legit nice. League is a great game, but it isn't the only great game out there.

I'm not laying blame anywhere, especially not at you or Riot, or the community, and not even the 'toxic' player. Just wanted to share that experience because it completely turned me off from playing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ryback

Recruiter

07-28-2013

Ahoy Lyte,

Your work on league has always been the most important to me, mostly because I see the whole MOBA genre as a twisted social experiment. You're basically shoving up to 5 strangers in the same game, not telling them what they're doing before the game. At the same time, they (usually) go into the game planning on what they want to do before the game starts. So just as the game begins, the "teammates" have a high probability to start the game as competitors in a game of "I want this role!" before the real game even begins. In short, you start the game with a really good chance for someone to have aggressiveness towards his teammates

This is the whole reason I've basically quit solo ranked at this point, more often than not I have to play babysitter to win the game. No, not camp the lane. I have to pander an angry player's ego or mediate a pointless fight where people put more energy into trying to prove their point for a situation that happened 3-4 minutes ago rather than the whole slew of other things you need to be doing to play this game well. More vexing than the stand off guy, is the "I give up guy." 1-2 deaths before 10 minutes and he stops trying completely, avoids confrontation with the enemy team at all costs and tries to surrender every chance he gets. This type of player is the more passive angry individual and more frustration because he typically has no intention of being reasoned with and ignores all discussions. I feel like when I play solo queue ranked I'm volunteering for a cognitive/behaviorial therapist position for 30-40 minutes. While I've gotten better at that than I care to be, I realize I've reached my threshold on patience as I've become more passive aggressive than I used to be when I have to "get allies back in the game."

This is the beast you're engaged in a never ending fight with, and I fervently hope you can find a way to tame it to the point that I when I queue up to play league of legends again, I'm actually playing league of legends again.

Now that you've taken the time (hopefully, no big deal if not) to read my rant, I feel I owe you some feedback good sir!

Behavioral alerts: I wouldn't have known these existed if not for the website/forums. I can easily see this being one of the most effective ways to cut back in toxicity from players who care about their record/winning. I know I ever got one I would take an hour or so off before playing again. The instant feedback is incredibly useful, I'd take care however to make sure it doesn't pop up on someone the moment the log in after being off for a long period of time. That would just be needlessly frustrating. The most common interpretations of this case would be A: "You had a bad day yesterday.", B: "Remember that (insert favorite insult) yesterday? you might get another one." or C: "Lol, I don't care." While that's not a comprehensive list it's frustrating the normally cooperative and friendly player base.

Honor initiative: In it's current iteration, I don't feel it's as effective as it could be. This basically identifies who typically level headed people are and that's about it. They also have the incentive to stay level headed or possibly lose their rewards (which are disproportionately hard to get in my personal opinion) if they ever should ever come across an anger provoking situation.

Chat Restriction: This one is a miss in my opinion, but this is from the perspective of an almost exclusively ranked player. At the very least to improve this there could be a default message sent at the beginning of the match telling his team he's on chat restriction. As it is right now, he has to start the game debating if he wants to use one of his oh so valuable messages on letting people know that. Smart pings make this almost viable, but they aren't an end all solution. If you see someone roaming top, do you spam 3 pings up river hoping they know what you mean? Or do you simply press "missing from lane" and hope they were watching? This could also cause your other lane to back up from a possible turret when you know which way their mid is going. What if you ping their blue buff at 6 minutes in as mid lane, because you want to contest their blue with your advantage and want to convey that to your team. Your jungle will just go "wtf, it's not up yet." and write you off as uninformed. It's not the most effective tool in my opinion and doesn't do anything that instant behavior alerts do better, as I theorize that most of the effectiveness of this tool was from the "stop or face more severe consequences" incentive which the instant behavior alert trumps.

Reform cards: The single most important thing you've done. I can imagine nothing more annoying than being suspended and have no idea why. The best way to let people know where their problems are and where they can improve. Also identifies the truly toxic with people who will argue against CLEAR evidence of poor behavior and still seeing nothing wrong with it.

Rather long post I know, so here's a TL;DR version.

I appreciate what you're doing and realize you'll never be able to solve everything, but lowering the amount of toxicity is crucial and greatly appreciated.

Feedback:

Instant behavior alerts: Great idea, just make sure they are always instant and they'll have no downside.

Chat Restriction: I may be uninformed of the whole list of restrictions and how it works, but I feel this does just some bad as well as good and will become obsolete with IABs.

Honor Initiative: Not the most effective at reducing general toxicity, but an effective incentive to not become toxic when you're typically a level headed player.

Reform Cards: The best, no downside. except maybe some forum clutter at times. . .

Thanks again!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FenixRizing

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhan View Post
About leavers/AFK in ranked:

- Reduce LP loss for the team with leaver/AFK.
- Increased LP loss for the Leaver/AFK.


Ever thought about it? (Probably yes), Then tell me why it wouldn't work in conjuction with the leaver Buster system? Doesn't, with both of these solutions instored at the same time, allows players who had to struggle in an unfair matchup lose less and the offender being hurted a lot more? Thus not inclining someone to leave the game for the team and reduce LP loss?

Thank you, have a good day
What if players started to leave purposely so the rest of the team wouldn't lose much LP if they see they are outclassed (like 3-21 by 15 minutes in)? Or what if someone was AFK/DC from the start then reconnects in the last 2-3 mins before your team can surrender or game ends? Then would the automated system still subtract less LP for the team or make it a standard subtraction?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GoldfishBowl

Senior Member

07-28-2013

I just want to throw my experience behind Restricted Chat working with a quick example.

Yesterday I had a game with somebody approximately named "FVCK TH3 TR1BUNAL".
Great. I'm in the third of my promotional series having gone 1/1, and I get saddled in with this clown who has obviously been banned.
In champ select there's some light banter between folks, nothing out of the ordinary, but it makes the pit in my stomach grow.
We get in game, and he (as Lee Sin) says "I'm on restricted chat, so I'm going to use lots of pings."
Yeah, big surprise there bucko.
As the game progresses, thee's a couple moments where one of our lanes didn't follow up on his engage, and there's a line of charged chat between them, but it quickly cuts off, in my opinion due to inability to escalate the argument.
Lee Sin proceeds to play well, communicating with pings and we push through to win and get me promoted a division. After the game I compliment his Lee and he returns with how I was a great support who saved him more times than he could count.
I've been in piles of games where that first argument simply explodes into insults back and forth, ending with a demoralized team just waiting to take shots at each other and a wholly expected game loss. Restricted Chat very visibly salvaged this game for me.

I think the issue isn't playing being a toxic person. There are certainly folks out there who are just jerks through and through, but I believe most cases are just people not knowing when not to hit back. Not every insult needs retaliation, not every grievance should be escalated into a full scale argument. Restricted chat helps players censor themselves when don't have the judgment on their own.