I Miss Old Karma So Much...

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Best Karma Ionia

Senior Member

07-26-2013

http://www.lolking.net/guides/182149

*Cough* A guide I took the liberty to make. Any feedback would be helpful!

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=3822087

A cool little summary done by Prof Nekko. I pretty much agree with everything he says; it's shorter, too, and well written.
Karma jungle in the lcs.
#winninglolno

I've been gone a few weeks...

Although apparently since my hiatus she's done well at least once in the LCS of three times.

Congratulations to riot. I have to admit, I'm SHOCKED that a 6 major patch major buff NeoKarma is finally more viable to meta sheep than a champion that underwent complete neglect for TWO YEARS. TWO ****ING YEARS. All you had to do was buff her damage, nerf her mana costs, extend the slow and utility, increase the shield and straight up buff her passive multiple times each patch, but ye' finally dun it. It still took several months and your total denial. But ye' dun it.

Her numbers finally look good, her mana costs low. Her play style is completely boring, she's a legitimate straight up spam bot and lacks any real combos or play style out of W Q2 with Q hit every time it comes off cooldowns.

You finally made something the metasheep will appreciate.

Job well done.

End of new stuff.

Hello. My name is Karma Castle, and in case you couldn't tell, I'm a MASSIVE Karma fan. I'm working on some guides for lolpro and other sites for her, and have written many many posts, varying from 2-3 lines up to massive essays like this. I post often in Champion Feedback, largely about Karma as well. You may know me from previous posts like 'AP Karma Top will be new FOTM after elise/kennen/jayce' etc. I don't make those topics because I adore NeoKarma. I make those topics to try and delude myself into thinking she's fun and effective.

Also, here's a link to my guide for NEOKARMA on champion feedback.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ht=karma+guide

Why am I posting it? To prove I have tried to make NeoKarma work, I do still play her and I am fully aware of what she does, her strengths and weaknesses and differences between her old self.

Introductions

First off, I'm opening by saying old karma had seen tourny play, mainly on TPA. NeoKarma has yet to be seen. I'm writing this because I can't get over the injustice that has been done. I even had a dream two weeks ago I was playing Old Karma. A little creepy and strange, I know. But I can't get her out of my head! Is there a league client I can download and play? And is it strange if I feel like I should cry every time I really think and reminisce about her? I don't, but I feel the capacity is there.

Copy Pasted from middle of my essay because this is why my creams are so puffed. Why I'm so passionate, upset, and hateful. This is why I can't take this game or riot seriously.

I'm sorry but this is a big **** you from me, Riot. How dare you. How dare you have the gall to rework a champion based entirely off your own ignorance. You never allowed her to run on free week, no **** nobody knows what she does. You allow 0 experimentation. You deny her any chance of becoming popular. You give poorer players no way of trying to learn her to decide if the IP Is worth it. (believe it or not, a lot of league players can't afford the 10 dollars it is to buy the average champion). Then you blame the karma players and allies for not knowing what she does, then say that it's borderline toxic because you have to work as a team and trust in the ability of her massive shield/heal combo? You did NOTHING to try to increase her popularity before the nerf/rework, what have you. You didn't make any threads as you did for Rengar, Yorick, Xerath. You didn't try releasing a new skin (ezreal, udyr). You didn't even bother trying to put her on free week ONCE to see what would happen. This makes me sick. YOU make me sick, Riot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwerty View Post
The reason they are making these threads about changing champions now is because they realized how horribly the screwed up with Karma and are afraid to make that mistake again.

They made assumpions about what Karma was about without knowing. And it made an ass out of them when they deleted a Champion.

Yes, deleted a champion. "New Karma" is not "Karma"
This guy gets it. On a side note, she took a MASSIVE bullet for future non-**** ups. Also, why they didn't just do a VU like trundle/sej with slight tweaking is WAY beyond me. Their kits are almost identical to what they were before the VU give or take scaling differences and some number changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS1d6d3ffc5d25bf1bdf6f0 View Post
Basically Riot changed their story at the last second because they realized they ****ed up, just like they did with Kayle.
This. Riot initially said she was too reliant on allies and her kit didn't work for solo play. Several weeks later they said her passive was toxic and lacked counter play. 40% winrate speaks strongly, well done riot. Cover 'dem tracks.

Interesting Facts for Those of You Who Dont Want to Read due to TLDR


0. Karma was taken off the free week rotation. I wonder why nobody knew how she worked.
1. You probably know she had her ult at one. But did you know she had 6 ranks in Q, W, and E?
2. Her passive gave you AP scaling on your missing HP, down to 30% up to 130 AP at level 16.
3. Karma was once able to wave clear easily and efficiently.
4. Karma had the best shield in the entire game, base and scaling. 270 + .8. 80% AP SCALING. I wonder why she was a better mid than 0 item support.
5. Karma's main form of damage was her mantra Shield, that caused the shield to do the same damage as it protected for; upwards of 900-1,000.
6. Karma's heal could heal the entire team. It was base + % missing HP.
7. Believe it or not, Karma had seen tourny play.
8. Karma fell off once the 0 CS support meta came in. She was much stronger as an APC as she needed gold/items to be of use. This is often contributed to one of her biggest downfall factors.


Warning: This is a very long TL;DR Essay But please....

At least read the 'So overall' section.

Also read the italicized and underlined part near part I shall label now.

Intro

I know nobody cares and there's no point in crying since Riot is too stubborn to ever consider reversing a rework and just tweaking with a VU which is all she needed really. Perhaps a hard CC like a snare on her W. That's ALL that would have made her 100% viable. Hell, maybe even OP. She'd have a teamwide heal, the best shield in the game, a hard CC and the ability to speed allies up to engage/disengage. Sounds op af to me.

I also just want to put into words what it was like playing Karma.

Baiting and Outsmarting

Sure, NeoKarma can bait kills with mantra W and E, but it's VERY iffy and you still require a great deal of HP/Back up strategies (flash/ignite) to pull it off successfully and the reliability of your baiting largely depends on the type of champion your against. A tank. Mobility type? Insane burst, perhaps.

However, when she had her < HP = > AP passive, she was able to bait out GREAT kills. You had THE BEST shield in the game and an extra 50 ap at level 3. The ****? I can't tell you how many times I heard "How the **** do you have 75 AP at level 3, reported. Enjoy the ban." [PS, hidden passive, nobody had any idea how she worked. Shield bombing on minions caused massive confusion and the high AP at low levels was mind blowing.]

More importantly, the reliability of the baiting abilities of her kit was massive compared to the 'ehhh' they are now. Unless you had some burst queen on you like Lebonk, most full rotation assassins like Fizz/Talon were not able to kill her fast enough. Your shield and heal combo with 20% hp or so would temporarily bring you up as far as 60%. Good luck breaking the best shield in the entire game with the highest base and scaling, buddy. Oh, by the way, it chunks for massive amounts early-mid game. As much as it protects, in fact.

As previously stated, you can only bait out kills under tower if you have a pretty good chunk of hp, maybe 30%, use mantra W, E, and even then still have to kite the **** around and hope they don't have ignite because your 90 hp shield aint worth **** early-mid game.

A lot of people say 'Well, her kit was clunky'

What? How. What? Did you play her once on free week or something? [LOL FUNNY JOKE SHE WAS NEVER. ON. FREE. WEEK. Wonder why she was never popular/tried/known. Logic = Riot]

Massive shield that does incredible damage. Check. Not clunky. Very intuitive, even matching her 'karma' good/bad theme of protection and damage.

AOE Cone heal that, realistically, can't *miss*. Not only was this damage reliable, it did the same as her current Q un-mantra'd. Oh. It also healed every ally in it while simultaneously dealing damage. How in hells name is a reliable AOE burst/heal ability clunky? Come now. Again, amazing synergy with the karma yin/yang. Destroy your enemies, protect your allies.

Her W was her 'tether'. This slowed the target if enemy, sped up allies. Notice the yin/yang theme? Oh, and tt was also usable on minions. This is designated as her weakness. Why? Let me explain how it was used.

The Life of a Clunky Skill

Her W was maxed last. However, it still provided a speed boost and slowing of the enemy. Your typical harass combo was W, run close enough, mantra E yourself and then Q them. You take 0 damage and deal a **** load then walk away. (By the by, she had the BEST strut in all of league. ****in hell I miss that in itself. That and her fans.)

Inversely, once forcing the enemy to B as nobody could outsustain the queen of shields and surprise burst, it was usable to clear waves. Cast it on a minion, take out the minion wave with a quick Q. Enemy misses out on 10 CS easy.

Going on with the minion targeting ability, it was usable on allied and enemy minions. This meant faster return to lane and more variety in getting to your lane opponent. W A minion behind them, they're slowed, take damage and you quickly mantra E mantra Q on that same minion. Lane opponent takes massive damage and you leave after healing with dat mantra Q. Which had a base healing amount, by the way. So you could use it without waiting for low HP for it to be worth anything. *COUGH. COUGH.*

It was also usable on allies for a speed boost. This gave great synergy for ganks. Go in, bait out an engage, shield self tether jungle THROUGH lane opponent, lane opponent takes damage and is slowed. Easy kill or summoner burn. It also allowed karma to take blue without awkwardly auto attacking between her 5 second CD q as she does now. It's so embarrassing when they think you can kill the blue buff with 500 hp quickly.

It was also great for initiating fights. Mantra W your tank while positioning yourself (GASP, you had to think and position on an APC Support!?) across from allies, giving team 40% (when mantrad) movement steroid... And there's no getting away without some item/summoner uses. PS, use tether on hard engager IE vi/hecarim, watch tether hit allies and foes alike. TONS OF DAMAGE #phreak

Well this seems like a great skill with much versatility and utility. What was the problem, Karma Castle?

And I quote.

"We feel Karma relies to heavily on allies to know what [her kit] does."

Riot. Riot just basically said the equivalent of "We feel that relying on your teammates in a 5V5 Multiplayer game, a MOBA, is very toxic to the game. Since Karma has a 1.5-2% pick rate, and we NEVER put her on free week, nobody knows what she does. Teamwork is very toxic, and we want to move her away to a more selfish style of play. **** teammates lol"

READ ME IF NOTHING ELSE.

I'm sorry but this is a big **** you from me, Riot. How dare you. How dare you have the gall to rework a champion based entirely off your own ignorance. You never allowed her to run on free week, no **** nobody knows what she does. You allow 0 experimentation, deny her any chance of becoming popular or getting learned. Then you blame the karma players and allies for not knowing what she does, then say that it's borderline toxic because you have to work as a team and trust in the ability of her massive shield/heal combo? You did NOTHING to try to increase her popularity before the nerf/rework, what have you. You didn't make any threads as you did for Rengar, Yorick, Xerath. You didn't try releasing a new skin (ezreal, udyr). You didn't even bother trying to put her on free week ONCE to see what would happen. This makes me sick. YOU make me sick, Riot.

God I hate diehards like you, Karma Castle. New karma is better, just face it. Old karma fell off so hard late game.

Oh I'm sorry. Does the fact that I don't do 2,000 damage per second mean I'm not viable? Oh I'm so sorry. I forgot. What's utility? I only damages. DAMAGES. DMG. PLS. WAT R DEFENSE. I NEED MOAR DMGS PLS NAO.

You make me sick too.

Reality

Old karma maintained her damage from mid-late game. You nuked hard as hell early-mid game. Yet it's true, you weren't going to destroy in team fights with your massive damage. You were going to destroy with massive AOE damage and incredible utility. (You still could 1V1 instagib with mantra E, q and a well aimed w on non tanks, btw.)

Wait what. Utility? What's that? Well... She brought the best shield in the entire game to her allies. Scaling and base. She could give voli/nocturne/olaf a MASSIVE health boost that also dealt damage equal to the protecting amount e to any enemies around them. Not only did you bring a god like shield to any target, be it initiator or squishy trying to kite... As well as a speed boost. Oh no. You also brought...

A team wide AOE % missing hp + base heal. Look me in my eyes and tell me a base + % hp heal on yourself and 4 allies was not in any way viable. Oh, it also dealt damage. During league of warmogs healing 600-1100 damage on tanks wasn't unheard of. You typically got to 18-20% healing by late game. Healing a 400/4000 hp target with that base a 20% was. It was ****ing epic. You ever seea tank about to die only to gain all his health back in the form of base health + a massive shield while chunking the enemy at the same time. Then giving them a speed boost to initiate and dive harder? God she was so underrated!

Bonus Secret Cool Fact about Karma you probably didn't know.

This is probably one of the coolest and most unique aspects about Old Karma.

I'm sure you know she got mantra at level 1. But did you know it couldn't be leveled? Karma is the only champion in the game that was able to level Q-W-E SIX. Yes, that's right. SIX times. Her abilities all had six ranks due to her lack of a 'real' ultimate. Do you know how freaking awesome that feels? You had your abilities maxed at 11, not 9. Oh man. Oh man I gonna cry. I gonna cry right now.

So overall...

Karma traded in her team heal, best shield in game, crazy unexpected burst damage, incredible laning phase and overall extreme late game utility not to mention her amazingly unique and almost bizarre fun play style......

For more consistent damage and a self heal with one mantra CD you rarely use outside of baiting kills in a 1v1 scenario. And a two second AA range snare lategame assuming 0 tenacity and you stay within attack range for two seconds.

I'm sorry morello, I'm sorry scarizard.

This was not a win. This was not a win for Karma, she's sitting around the same stats she was before. This is not a win for Karma fans, you took everything that made her her and crushed it. This is not a win for karma's allies in games. You took away her amazing late game utility/supporting abilities. You give her a 1.5second 60% move speed buff and 200 hp team shield in exchange for losing a 1,000 hp shield [look it up, incredibly easy to reach with her passive and typical AP build] that hit just as hard and a 18% teamwide AOE heal with base that also dealt damage.

One of the worst parts, Riot? You completely ignore any posts or ideas brought to you by the public and Karma players. You acknowledge a blue post only after tens of thousands of views, thousands of likes and hundreds of pages. Even then you basically gave us a 'too bad she's not changing, here, have 100 buffs.'

I for one will not sit silent and let you smear Karma any further.

Please stop deluding yourselves and look into this.

Edit: Thanks for the 50 likes in under 24 hours guys! Every bit helps. Maybe a red will post and explain their stance and justification on the scenario instead of scrub aside all the karma posts as they've been doing.
Edit 2: 150 likes and 9,000 views with 300 replies in under 2 days? Christ guys <3! Keep it going. I'd love to get volty in here for some ideas or how he's going to move Karma in one direction or the other. Obviously I'd like a revert but... Maybe he'll try making NeoKarma more like her dead sister?
Edit 3: Bwagh 114 pages and 370 upvotes. On a sidenote apparently her being in the LCS multiple times and after her SIXTH. CONSECUTIVE. BUFF. She is finally being viewed as viable and even strong by meta sheep. Mission accomplished, Riot. [*Cough* two years no buffs *cough* no attempts made *cough*]


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Netteh

Senior Member

07-26-2013

I miss old Karma too


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Xivarst

Senior Member

07-26-2013

Ya Karma really took a hit. I really miss the old passive. That things was very awesome


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EndlessssEntropy

Member

07-26-2013

tl;dr


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onboardtonowhere

Senior Member

07-26-2013

And thus the 3 karma players from S2 have gathered above me in this thread.

Everyone else don't even know what she did.


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That Guy Leo

Member

07-26-2013

I've played both versions of Karma a handful of times, but original Karma was more fun.


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Spidey

Senior Member

07-26-2013

Yeah, I agree with this pretty much. Old Karma was pretty much ridic OP, it's just nobody played her. New Karma isn't any better, she's just simpler to play, which is the reason she has more consistent results.

I really wish they just kept old Karma and released this new Karma as a different champ.


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sirplayalot11

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Senior Member

07-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by onboardtonowhere View Post
And thus the 3 karma players from S2 have gathered above me in this thread.

Everyone else don't even know what she did.
Oi, plenty of people play Karma, even if it was a few times. I myself, got my first pentakill with her, pre-rework of course. I gasmed when I saw Chawy play her in a tourney, :3333
But yeah, she's like that champ you love, but put aside for a while, and now, you just want to play her, but as you scroll everywhere, up and down, you realize...

She's gone...

Never to return...

RIP Karma, Feb, 2011-March, 2013


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Best Karma Ionia

Senior Member

07-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spìdey View Post
Yeah, I agree with this pretty much. Old Karma was pretty much ridic OP, it's just nobody played her. New Karma isn't any better, she's just simpler to play, which is the reason she has more consistent results.

I really wish they just kept old Karma and released this new Karma as a different champ.
All they had to do was add the snare to current W.

100% op mid laner.

Nerfs following.


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Xivarst

Senior Member

07-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by sirplayalot11 View Post
Oi, plenty of people play Karma, even if it was a few times. I myself, got my first pentakill with her, pre-rework of course. I gasmed when I saw Chawy play her in a tourney, :3333
But yeah, she's like that champ you love, but put aside for a while, and now, you just want to play her, but as you scroll everywhere, up and down, you realize...

She's gone...

Never to return...

RIP Karma, Feb, 2011-March, 2013

I agree. I played her every once in awhile. It was really surprising how durable she really was with that shield and heal.
The real fun for me at least was keeping low enough to bait.