Why isn't Bortk melee only?

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BiggerFish

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
I'm so glad we're nerfing it for everyone because ranged are op.

not like its one of the few things that help some champs close with ranged kiting champs.


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Syzro

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
as a player who play melee champs usually ( i find melee more fun to play ) and rarely plays

ranged i dislike that change i find that active to be very helpful for me as a melee champ

so nerfing it is also a nerf to melee champs who use botrk (like Vi)


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Xyltin

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Morello View Post
What if the item was split then? The active could go to a melee-only item and the counter for health stacking should stay in BotRK, available to everyone.
The actual counter to HP stacking is the active.
the passive is not too awesome. It is good against nearly every champ, but a tick better against HP stacking champs. 90% of your dmg will still come from your normal AD or abilities and so it doesn't have the big effect.

it is not like double the amount of HP doubles the bonus dmg of the on hit effect. Cause your dmg will be higher when the enemy has still full HP, you will go down to the low HP section faster and then your dmg will go down a bit and so you will have to hit the enemy longer and more often when he is lower.

It creates a curve where you get definitely a dmg increase when the enemy has 4k HP instead of 2k, but it is not as strong as most people think it is.
And in the end it comes more down to the Armor value of the enemy (before the ADC gets LW) than the actual max HP. That's why Randuin's Omen is so great against it.
HP is good against every enemy .
AS slow is great against BotRK.
Armor is great against BotRK.
Your HP is pretty safe as long as you get Armor.

BotRK counters the early warmogs rush and makes Frozen Mallet worse (a decent item actually but not good to rush cause of Phage and cause of BotRK).
Againt Sunfire cape and Omen it doesn't really do more than agaisnt a normal ADC that builds no HP and no extra defense till late game.


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TheXthDoctor

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManDudeMcDudeman View Post
What about Iceborn then? It shares a similar situation to BORK.
Because there are few cases where ranged would build it (really just Ezreal, who has been allowed to proc on-hits with his Q for a long time, and building it cuts out on his DPS if he goes that route) and almost every ADC is building BotRK and rushing it early.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzro View Post
as a player who play melee champs usually ( i find melee more fun to play ) and rarely plays

ranged i dislike that change i find that active to be very helpful for me as a melee champ

so nerfing it is also a nerf to melee champs who use botrk (like Vi)
The problem is that BotRK helped ranged champs more. You take a % of the enemies MS and add it to yours. Now most enemies you want to use it on have higher MS than a ranged ADC, while ranged ADCs have overall the lowest MS in the game till they get a PD or Shiv and even then they are not the fastest in the game.

Also the order of the activation is a problem. the one that uses it first will have the disadvantage in MS.

Nothing against different melee and ranged versions, but the nerf will hurt the ranged champs more. And the item was overall still OP.


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
So if it's too good for ranged champion kiting, why not just make the active weaker on ranged champions? Sort of like how Youmuu's Ghostblade active has a different duration based on whether you're melee or ranged.


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManDudeMcDudeman View Post
What about Iceborn then? It shares a similar situation to BORK.
Iceborn Gauntlet was already changed months ago, to have a weaker slowing field if you're a ranged champ


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
That nerf is a single second off of the duration of the active. But you still gain 30% and they lose 30%, so 3 seconds is still plenty for a marksman to get away from melee.

If you want to make it balanced, imo, you would make all the slows less effective for ranged and fully effective for melee.

Just like Phage, Trinity Force, and Frozen Mallet, the Blade of the Ruined King AND the Iceborn Gauntlet should slow for 30% if you are melee and 20% if you are ranged. There is a precedent FOR A GOOD REASON. Slows on ranged champs have always been OP, always! The balance team figured that out in Beta, I believe, but have forgotten it along the way.

This actually allows counterplay so Morello can be happy. If a melee attacks a ranged, the champ that activates BoRK first will probably be at the disadvantage, so it becomes a game of chicken. If the ranged activates first but the melee manages to activate in reaction, then the melee will have more movespeed than the ranged. If it happens the other way around, then the ranged will have about the same move speed as the melee, allowing them to run away but not kite so easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS15729ac22b02d27383e6e View Post
Iceborn Gauntlet was already changed months ago, to have a weaker slowing field if you're a ranged champ
Not enough. The IG should be 30% for melee and 20% for ranged like the phage. Narrowing the field that you have to escape did not do much to stop blue Ez from buying it, no did it? Those players know that it is still IMBA.


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LockGood

Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
You are nerfing melees who use it too, idiot


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WC3betterthanSC

Senior Member

07-24-2013

why would you want BOTRK to be melee only ?