Why isn't Bortk melee only?

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CQReborn

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
Lets be real here Phreak. The way ADCs set up and build commonly lends them to be significantly faster at every stage of the game, as long as BoTRK has an active that can be used by ranged carries, it is going to be way more effective on them then on melee.

If both a melee and the ADC he is chasing have the item, nerfing the slow on it will still leave the ADC with an edge =/


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Lalawooo

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
range champs benefit from it almost always! melee champ hardly use it cause it doesn't effect them and seeing how strong an adc is without this item is enough said


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SanSarra

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CQReborn View Post
Lets be real here Phreak. The way ADCs set up and build commonly lends them to be significantly faster at every stage of the game, as long as BoTRK has an active that can be used by ranged carries, it is going to be way more effective on them then on melee.

If both a melee and the ADC he is chasing have the item, nerfing the slow on it will still leave the ADC with an edge =/
I totally agree. BOTRK should do its job, nothing more. It should be a situational item, not an escape tool, and of course not mandatory. (It's the only item in the game with such an active, which both deals cc/dmg and gives you a buff.)


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BOPOKIPPO

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.

Please don't nerf the active for melee. Melee need it to beat all the ranged kiting that already exists.... Just lower the %s down to 20 for ranged only


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Xyltin

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
Right, but that's exaclty what it doesn't too well (except the Active), while it is better than most other ADC items overall, regardless of HP.

I understand the active nerf from 4 to 3 sec, it is a needed nerf to ranged ADC to make the item not as powerful to kite or chase people, but the item will still be overall one of the best ADC items in the game, and not only as a counter.

The situation is similar to the old S3 BC. It was supposed to be a counter item to Armor for AD casters, but in the end it was great against every enemy, regardless of the amount of Armor they bought.

BotRK is a failure as it was BC at the beginning of S3 and there is still no good sollution to fix these 2 items so that they can do their job and be real counter items instead of being too strong overall or too weak as a counter.


BC problem: It is not an item to counter Armor, but an item to help the team against nearly every enemy as long as the team has enough physical dmg. But it is not for the champs overall, but limited to a certain kind of skillsets: Champs that can apply 5 stacks fast enough onto more than one target while their own dmg is not too important (Garen, tanky Renekton, ...) or champs that want to burst the enemy with a long combo of many attacks while the last one deals the most dmg (only Zed).
So the initial idea behind the item is not what makes it good on certain champs, but the ABUSE CHASE.

BotRK has a similar problem: It doesn't get bought on nearly all ADCs over the game (on most of them as their first item) cause you want to counter HP, but cause it is AWESOME and on champs that get extra AS or on-hit-effects it is even better.
I see BotRK as a temporary sollution to HP, but it can't be what Riot really wants in S4/S5. Currently it makes HP stacking worse, and so people don't like to stack much HP. It changes the meta cause it is in every game and nobody can really stack HP.
The real sollution would be that people can stack HP and if they do, the enemy can get an item to counter that build.
A counter should be bought to counter the build and not before the enemy even uses that build.


In the end, BC and BotRK are overall failures. They work currently to make itemization more flexible (BotRK does actually the opposite) and to hold some abusive chases away from the game that would probably hurt the game even more (HP stacking meta).
But the goal should be real counter items that make the itemization really flexible and not items that limit the enemies build options even before he thinks about that build.
Both items will never really fulfil that role as they are now. It would probably be better to give 2-3 options of BotRK and BC (with passives that don't stack) for every kind of champ. Graves wants to counter max HP, too. But he can't really do it as well as the others cause he is not the high range high AS champ.
But I know that such things need time, just like the current MR itemization changes. And so I hope that we will see some more changes to these counter items in S4.


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Son of Morello

Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
What if the item was split then? The active could go to a melee-only item and the counter for health stacking should stay in BotRK, available to everyone.


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An Exile

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
It's also amazing on bruisers that makes kiting on a ranged champion impossible if you don't purchase a botrk.


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thumbnail9

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
But it doesn't actually beat out any of the other high damage items in terms of "beating" HP once you factor in crit. The closer a target gets to having no HP say good bye to the damage gains you got from Botrk's passive. At that point your better off with just having a BT and getting a crit here and there. Fact of the matter is it didn't do anything but make a small subset of champions OP in adverse ways. It didn't even change the build set for more then 3 of the ADC's (4 if you go zuna's way for trist, even he has to see why that sucks though).

Champions that benefited from it:

Varus: Don't play him to much but it increased his power level. Mostly due to the ability to stack his passive way easier and that he only needs to survive long enough with the ability shot to proc his W then hit them with the grievous wounds to knock healing. Then you can't out trade him.

Vayne: huge spike in her power, but its not all because of Botrk. You took a champ that had a bad early/mid game then gave her 40% AS where she normally wouldn't have it and then gave her the best kiting active or ability in the game. Early and mid game is where the true damage is felt the hardest and normally during this stage she'd probably have around 1.o AS is now pushing 1.3 and is soon to get another 50%. It even makes it so she can properly use her ulti to full effect. Then when you do get to her she's so kitey with the active+barrier GG no Re. One item to break a champ, think back to Talon.

Irelia: God she needed help but at this point you should've just reverted the W nerfs, she has that amount of sustain now anyways. The item really didn't fix anything expect now made her a sustain monster who if she wins a lane vs most top end fighters it will be purely because of this and the effects of that high of sustain when you true damage your opponent. The active is only needed because you guys killed Phage and BotRK is a much better build path then tri-force (price is good you just need to fix phage).


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Epichuntarz

Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The goal of the item was to beat health stacking, not for melee only to beat health stacking.

I know we're nerfing the active in a coming patch, because it's too good for ranged champion kiting.
While we're at it, why isn't Iceborn melee only?


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Critmaster Garen

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Senior Member

07-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epichuntarz View Post
While we're at it, why isn't Iceborn melee only?
yes please. i want to be able to play garen again. at all. this is not even an exaggeration. the item on ranged champions flat out invalidates him.

you know what i did, when i faced a top lane udyr? i picked ryze against him and rushed a gauntlet. the guy didnt even have a chance. a single item on ranged just destroying a champion.