@Morello Poppy

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Sol Badguy

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Don't worry, I'm here to explain the problem with Poppy's ult!

In its current form, It's an abhorrent, hamfisted way to try and force viability. Say you're player X, and you're being chased by Poppy. Poppy ults your friend who doesn't have a CC (And Poppy is inherently tanky). Where's the counterplay here? What option do YOU as a player have to deal with this other than run away as quickly as you can? There is almost zero room for plays, in edge cases like this. Either poppy is completely immune to any player option you could take as she kills you, and then becomes mortal again. Or the opposite happens and she fails to do that, wasting a long CD ult to run at you as you run away.

There is absolutely zero choice in this matter. You don't get to stand and fight, you can't really fight and wait it out, you can't CC her and kite her around. It lasts an -ungodly- amount of time in context for this game. Something's gotta give there. With a hard CC, high burst, and innate tankiness, there has to be levers for a champion. There has to be decision points. 6+ seconds of invulnerability turns off every lever for balance because the hero is telling you 'I'm going to do what I want and you as my enemy don't matter'

In the case that Poppy ults you herself- This is only slightly less egregious. Your team is also experiencing this. -they cannot help you-. They can shield you, sure. They can't actually take a direct route and stop poppy, that's not an option at all. She gets to magnify her burst potential, assuring that if she has a lead or just key items, she is extremely difficult to trade with, or at worst she gets six seconds of telling your entire team they're miserable gits.

Skills that remove levers and stuff are bad. As it turns out, Kayle's ult has been nerfed multiple times for this same idea. Invulns are fun, hard to balance, and a nightmare for every player that has to experience their best case scenario- They killed you with no input from you.


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Acid Reigns

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Senior Member

07-20-2013

^Tonnes of champions have this though.

The summary of your scenario is "If Poppy is fed, and ults your friend you can't do anything."
Tell me, wtf do you do to Zed in the exact same scenario, with him ulting you?
How about a fed Diana?
Akali?
Olaf?
Ap Tristana?
Rengar?
What do you do when you walk into a bush, and either Malzahar, Leblanc, Annie, Veigar, etc is in there?

You die in every case, regardless of what you do, you die, in most cases instantly. ^^

I really hate these reworks. I've yet to see a champion rework where fans of the champion were still fans of the champion afterwards, including myself with Katarina, and Twitch. I've rarely played Eve since she was touched either.

I sincerely doubt I'll play Poppy after they rework her.

P.S Guardian Angel and Zhonya's both hard counter Poppy ult. It does not entirely lack counterplay.
Building tanky also shuts her down pretty hard.


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Dilando

Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'd like an entire rework, though with the scope, I'd like to wait until the art pipeline catches it. It's my prediction that, gameplay wise, Poppy is next "new Eve" after Heimer.

We won't remove the wall slam. Too cool to scrap.
Many will complain, others know you are trying to do what's necessary.
Is anything decided about her futur role yet ? (more assassin or bruiser)


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Kcugi

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That skill is first on the chopping block. I'd RATHER make it Kayle ult - at least it'd be understandable.
Do not touch Kayle, and if, kepp Scarizard away from her. Plz?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That skill is first on the chopping block. I'd RATHER make it Kayle ult - at least it'd be understandable.
Give her something that disables enemy Flashes and dashes and the like.


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Monsieur Dandy

Junior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Reigns View Post
^Tonnes of champions have this though.

The summary of your scenario is "If Poppy is fed, and ults your friend you can't do anything."
Tell me, wtf do you do to Zed in the exact same scenario, with him ulting you?
How about a fed Diana?
Akali?
Olaf?
Ap Tristana?
Rengar?
What do you do when you walk into a bush, and either Malzahar, Leblanc, Annie, Veigar, etc is in there?

You die in every case, regardless of what you do, you die, in most cases instantly. ^^

I really hate these reworks. I've yet to see a champion rework where fans of the champion were still fans of the champion afterwards, including myself with Katarina, and Twitch. I've rarely played Eve since she was touched either.

I sincerely doubt I'll play Poppy after they rework her.

P.S Guardian Angel and Zhonya's both hard counter Poppy ult. It does not entirely lack counterplay.
Building tanky also shuts her down pretty hard.
The point about GA/Zhonya stands about right. Banshee's is another huge deal, since you either need to engage onto your target with E before ulting, losing out both on the CC and the necessary damage to kill your target (Banshee's practically shut's down AP Poppy, whereas GA just means she needs to camp your resurrecting body for a few secs). Magic resistance overall is really, really good against her in the first place, and even just having access to the new hexdrinker upgrade (she deals a ton of % dmg, a flat hp shield is ridiculously efficient against this, since you become tankier without the % dmg increasing) is a massive counter to her. The counterplay is there, it's just rather situational. However, I still think that mostly everything about the champion could be retained just by making her E a skillshot. You immediately open up a very simply counterplay option: dodging. Her R having a "slew of mechanical overload" to quote a certain Mr. Morello shouldn't be hard to get around by adding some visual cue about who Poppy actually targeted.


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Mid or Top Plz

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'd like an entire rework, though with the scope, I'd like to wait until the art pipeline catches it. It's my prediction that, gameplay wise, Poppy is next "new Eve" after Heimer.

We won't remove the wall slam. Too cool to scrap.
How many Eve reworks does it take to make it right!


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

07-20-2013

@Morello, I get why Poppy's ult is on the chopping block, as it is the very definition of a skill with no counterplay. But it is also one of, if not THE most defining thing about Poppy, being able to wade right into a 1v5 and kill at least two people. Counterplay amounts to basically fleeing in terror and hoping it wears off before she can ace your team.

That said, what I really want to ask is, when Poppy was initially designed, what was supposed to be the intent of her Ultimate? It is almost always cast on an enemy with low damage or zero CC, who is powerless to stop her while she mops up the rest of the enemy team, but it always struck me, thematically, as a sort of Thunderdome ability, that you would use to call out your enemy and force them to 1v1 you.

The issue is, Poppy is invulnerable to everyone but her target, while she is herself free to target whomever she pleases. Have you ever thought about making her unable to deal damage to enemies other than her marked target while her ultimate is active? That way she actually has to attack the target she chooses?


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Viktormoros

Junior Member

07-20-2013

I really don't want Poppy changed at all. If anything I'd want her E glitch fixed, and that's it. I use Poppy a lot, and I feel she is good the way she is now.


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BestVayneMars

Recruiter

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeachsProperty View Post
the nerf irelia bit needs to go to "rework" as nerf after nerf would eventually kill her
Change her ulti dont touch irelia