Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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CatchMeIHavCandy

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Bump so maybe Morello will reply further


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Nuclear Dragon

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I'm fine with Pantheon being a lane bully. That's fine.

I believe he has a good niche and exerts good global pressure, but I believe he needs some extra polish. The extreme damage on his ultimate is not particularly necessary, and the general consensus is that players want him to be BETTER in a team-fight. Note that I said BETTER, not excellent. I find it acceptable for him to fall off late game, like Renekton. However, Renekton still acts as an excellent damage sponge late game. Pantheon can't do much tanking OR damage in a late game team-fight. He also doesn't have the in-fight utility (ult can't be used viably INSIDE combat) or pre-combat poke to help. Like I mentioned earlier, giving him safe pre-combat poke (maybe by giving his spear the OPTION of being a skillshot) or by giving him a bonus on kill/assists (such as skill resets, not sure) can allow him to be more useful in a fight without buffing his laning or dueling capabilities.

I would like to add that I believe it should be emphasized that Spartans thrive in battle. Just like the movie 300, Pantheon should be THRILLED to engage many enemies, and I believe it would be thematically appropriate for him to get buffs depending on the amount of enemy champions nearby.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

10-23-2013

A valid problem with Pantheon, I feel, is that he only feels good very early or when snowballed. There isn't much of an in-between with him in my mind... also he sort of frenetically falls in and out of favor with meta-shifts more than most champs IMHO (prob. due to my initial point).

I think this also partly has to do with AD Casters being in an odd place still. I agree he's a strange mix of Bruiser & Assassin in design.


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n3ac3y

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyto View Post
What about the fact that his late game cant be buffed without first nerfing his early game?

He needs changes so leaving him alone is not an option. He needs changes BECAUSE hes too strong of a lane bully, needs to be counterpicked or wins any lane matchup that's inherently toxic playstyle.

He needs some changes, hes like a late game nasus the first 20 minutes of the game but he only conditionally falls off if he's an idiot or he hasnt snowballed every lane ( when does panth NOT do this? )
Im sorry but your comments on Pantheons early game being this godly are unfounded.


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RustSka

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I feel like Pantheon's W is where work can be done. Pantheon has that Akali-syndrome where, due to his kits point and click nature, if you're in range and he's strong enough, you're dead that's it, and his kit has to be balanced around that. I feel like making Panth's W a skillshot charge similar to Gragas' E could open up some more options for him, and fix this lack of escapability problem. It would also be more in line with his theme too. Current Panth's W is the sort of frenzied strike you'd expect out of someone like Olaf. Panth isn't a wild animal in combat, he's a cool, calculated, manly Spartan, whose every motion is swift and precise with no wasted effort.


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Cylince II

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Junior Member

10-23-2013

Thread is mostly TL;DR. Read the Riot posts and skimmed the rest. While I don't feel comfortable enough with him to use in ranked, (Full metal) Pantheon is one of my favorite champs to play. With that, I've just got a couple of opinions.

Cast time (long indicator) on "R" makes it easy to dodge. This makes it an all or nothing ult. I don't feel too bad about it though with it's short cooldown time so it's a "meh" point. I feel some small quality of life tweaks could be made but am not to worried about it.

One thing I haven't seen discussed, AP ratios on the Aegis and skyfall abilities just don't feel like they fit with Mantheon. The guy's a warrior, he don't need any wimpy magic. Can we discuss the reasoning these were chosen to have AP ratios rather than AD (medium static/low ratio vs low static/medium ratio)? I like the discussion I've seen in here about adding an armor component to the aegis and giving it a more off-tank utility. It has always felt more like a utility tool to me anyways and I never rely on its damage.

@RiotFpMcgee, thanks for all the discussion. Don't let the haters get to you, I've seen too much of that lately. I always feel any input from inside the Riot offices is great insight.


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Troy242621

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylince II View Post
Thread is mostly TL;DR. Read the Riot posts and skimmed the rest. While I don't feel comfortable enough with him to use in ranked, (Full metal) Pantheon is one of my favorite champs to play. With that, I've just got a couple of opinions.

Cast time (long indicator) on "R" makes it easy to dodge. This makes it an all or nothing ult. I don't feel too bad about it though with it's short cooldown time so it's a "meh" point. I feel some small quality of life tweaks could be made but am not to worried about it.

One thing I haven't seen discussed, AP ratios on the Aegis and skyfall abilities just don't feel like they fit with Mantheon. The guy's a warrior, he don't need any wimpy magic. Can we discuss the reasoning these were chosen to have AP ratios rather than AD (medium static/low ratio vs low static/medium ratio)? I like the discussion I've seen in here about adding an armor component to the aegis and giving it a more off-tank utility. It has always felt more like a utility tool to me anyways and I never rely on its damage.

@RiotFpMcgee, thanks for all the discussion. Don't let the haters get to you, I've seen too much of that lately. I always feel any input from inside the Riot offices is great insight.
The point of his ultimate isn't damage, although the fact it has (Allegedly) HUGE damage probably takes a HUGE cut into his power budget. The point is that he can show up anywhere then stun you and burst. (Shame that it glitches constantly and does 0 damage, and the huge damage implies you actually try to land on someone when that is NEVER the case, you just use it to cut off escape routes.)


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Cylince II

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Junior Member

10-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Troy242621 View Post
The point of his ultimate isn't damage, although the fact it has (Allegedly) HUGE damage probably takes a HUGE cut into his power budget. The point is that he can show up anywhere then stun you and burst. (Shame that it glitches constantly and does 0 damage, and the huge damage implies you actually try to land on someone when that is NEVER the case, you just use it to cut off escape routes.)
Right, but why give it AP scaling rather than a low (0.4-0.6?) AD ratio or just a flat damage? The AP ratio is pretty much doing nothing at all. Am I missing some big AP Panth build that's out there like there was with Yi (who I'm actually sad to see the AP option disappear on)?


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Alcibion

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Your concerns are legit, but I think I did...My opinion is that Pantheon occupies a fairly unique space. You think it's unhealthy and toxic, I think otherwise.

Probably the biggest difference as that we have different perspectives on the amount of counterplay. In a 1 v 1 situation, I agree with you. Outside of a few matchups, Pantheon has the ability to be a brutally effective lane bully.

What I think is equally important to look at though, is that the game is 5 v 5. Junglers can gank, and with no escapes, Pantheon is left in a dangerous position. Lane swaps are feasible, different builds work (cloth armor + 5 pot for example) and as you noted, his late game doesn't have the same power level as his early game.

Does that mean we shouldn't change him? No. But it does mean that there's more to consider than simply his 1 v 1 lane strength.

Does that perspective make sense?
To iterate on this, Pantheon, similarly to LB (both early designs) is an example of depth and hazards relative to the targeted player base.

Pantheon's trade-off is that he loses a lot of effectiveness when played "straight" in the lategame, in exchange for his very powerful laning.
It brings variety to power curves and situations, which is at core healthy for game. However, seeing how he's above the average laning power it means that for the majority of players, used to more "standard" power levels, he's harder to lane against. Requires more finesse, tip-toeing; in short, is perceived as less fun because he restricts your freedom more.

There are two approaches to this:
- the first, the one you answered to (and that I'd dub the "player approach"), is that Pantheon is noxious to the players' fun, his opponent's game experience, etc. and that he should be "fixed" in order to accomodate for this experience to remain unchanged.
- the second one (that I'd dub the "designer" approach) is that he provides a different, not necessarily worse, experience. By adjusting your build, playstyle, etc. and surviving him until he falls off (or punishing his aggressive patterns), you can then regain that freedom as he can't pressure you anymore. Thus, it rewards players who are adaptive, put thought in their actions.

A biased rewording could be:
- Pantheon needs to be adjusted so that the players can stick to their single playstyle and patterns without having to think about it, while complaining that champions naturally beating said playstyle don't require thought.
- Part of becoming better is being able to adapt to the situation, and Pantheon rewards players who display said ability, granting them opportunities to feel good about planning and putting more thought into their play.


Pantheon forces you to react to him early, but as time passes he stops influencing you (outside of niches like splitpushing, which is a good thing and provides him with dynamic play style). People lane against him alone and complain about this specific aspect.
Karthus is ignorable early, and only force you to react to him if you want to shut him down. When he grows stronger in the late game you have to take him into account and he basically puts constraints on you. People face him as a part of a team (often in 5v5s) so they don't complain about him as much.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

I think Pantheon might have a better place late game if he was able to utilize his one range damage ability with less risk. Simply because it would allow poke. Of course Q is crazy powerful as is so it's hard to judge. GP, by contrast, has his W and speed boost to provide him some safety when moving into that range. Pantheon has no natural ability to escape once engaged on. He can only really counter-engage or stun + run.

On Howling Abyss he occupies this weird space where in some comps he can poke and in many others he just can't. In lane 1v1 it's way less risky as 600 range is enough to zone with and it's easier to fight 1 person with Panth.

I think the only possible Passive changes for late game would involve being able to hold more stacks or a shift to also blocking a single source of spell damage. The later would require it to proc in a different manner though.