Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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DemiluniS

Senior Member

10-23-2013

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I think this is part of what differentiates Pantheon from other picks. Generally speaking, Pantheon isn't picked for his late game prowess, or even his ability to blow up an ADC. There are definitely other champions that do that better. That said, very few can apply a similar amount of global pressure. This relative power level throughout the game provides different strategic options for a Pantheon pick, and/or team composition including him. I don't have a clear answer as to how to balance these things, but my bigger question is should we? Would moving Pantheon out of his role as lane bully that falls off improve the game and the options you have as a player? Or does that role fit within LoL? I don't honestly know but I think the pros outweigh the cons in this particular case.
First of all I wouldn't consider a lane bully as a role, Renekton is a lane bully too but he has a defined role in the game.
Secondly,do you find a champion that is such frustrating to play against should stay in the state he's now? Especially when Riot talking non-stop about healthier state of the game?
Pantheon's kit is just outdated and has many flaws, so why a remake wouldn't be a good opportunity to make his role and niche more defined, emphesize his theme and make the experience of playing as or against him much richer than it's now?


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Priamos

Senior Member

10-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Dyto View Post
See I understand this thinking, my biggest concern really is that 90% of the community feels pantheon needs late game nerfs and I cant imagine a world in which pantheon remains as ungodly strong early game and also gets late game buffs. Does that make sense? Counterpick can only work 9 slots outof 10, so if panth gets favorable matchup top he wins lane without a chance to stop him. Jungler has to camp him and other lanes then are free to pressure.

The problem is there is too much change in playstyle for entire teams with pantheon around, he either wins solo lane without a chance to fight back and you lose one solo lane for sure and he probably snowballs other lanes OR you camp him 100% of the first 20 minutes to shut him down and every other lane is destroyed. He has the same problem as shaco, you either spend 4 times the normal amount on pinks to counter him or you lose to him early.

I just want to know, riot won't buff his late game without balancing his early game.
Who is this 90% of the community you speak of? I've never heard of Pantheon seeing a ban in any Elo except for the occasional target ban against a Panth main.


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Mjolnir802

Senior Member

10-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
I'd also like to see some interaction between his Q and the rest of his kit. As it is, it's just a spammable point-and-click poke. It's boring. The idea I'd like would be something like this: reduce the damage on it slightly (maybe 10%?). But then, add a passive to it. Any time that Aegis Protection is triggered, give him a window where he can throw an enhanced spear (3 seconds?). Call it something like Return Strike. This Spear Shot would deal enhanced damage (20%?) and would slow the target momentarily. Adding this kind of play would make the ability feel more interactive, an improvement over the mindless spear spam we tend to see right now.
I like this. It rewards agression by Pantheon by bating the enemy to pop the shield, then turn it on them. But, it also give counterplay because the enemy can wait till the spear is on cd to pop the shield and attack.


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Bullettime7

Senior Member

10-23-2013

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Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Your concerns are legit, but I think I did...My opinion is that Pantheon occupies a fairly unique space. You think it's unhealthy and toxic, I think otherwise.

Probably the biggest difference as that we have different perspectives on the amount of counterplay. In a 1 v 1 situation, I agree with you. Outside of a few matchups, Pantheon has the ability to be a brutally effective lane bully.

What I think is equally important to look at though, is that the game is 5 v 5. Junglers can gank, and with no escapes, Pantheon is left in a dangerous position. Lane swaps are feasible, different builds work (cloth armor + 5 pot for example) and as you noted, his late game doesn't have the same power level as his early game.

Does that mean we shouldn't change him? No. But it does mean that there's more to consider than simply his 1 v 1 lane strength.

Does that perspective make sense?
The issue is more that Pantheon ends up being a champion similar to Yorick.

Unless you pick something specifically to deal with him, the lane match is going to be terrible, whether mid or top. Move in for CS? Spear. Try to harass? Blocked by shield and spear. Spear. Spear. Spear spear spear spear spear spear spear spear spear.

Then he falls off a bit and isn't desirable by teammates after his laning phase.

Pantheon needs his power scaling smoothed out and to be more desirable in the mid-late game but he cna't have his power addressed because of how annoying and fairly broken he is during the early game. I don't think Pantheon is overpowered in the least due to how his power scaling would look if you plotted it on a graph but there's a difference between Renekton style lane bullies and Pantheon/Yorick style pain in the asses. Their entire job is to make sure that their opponent isn't allowed to play the game for 15-20 minutes followed by "well they didn't give up kills so now I can't do anything. Sorry team."


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Your concerns are legit, but I think I did...My opinion is that Pantheon occupies a fairly unique space. You think it's unhealthy and toxic, I think otherwise.

Probably the biggest difference as that we have different perspectives on the amount of counterplay. In a 1 v 1 situation, I agree with you. Outside of a few matchups, Pantheon has the ability to be a brutally effective lane bully.

What I think is equally important to look at though, is that the game is 5 v 5. Junglers can gank, and with no escapes, Pantheon is left in a dangerous position. Lane swaps are feasible, different builds work (cloth armor + 5 pot for example) and as you noted, his late game doesn't have the same power level as his early game.

Does that mean we shouldn't change him? No. But it does mean that there's more to consider than simply his 1 v 1 lane strength.

Does that perspective make sense?
It does, but most of Pantheons ridiculousness in lane comes from somewhere else, his passive. If you haven't ever seen a double bruiser lane with him, Pantheon can tower dive at level 2, because when played well, he tanks one tower shot. In a solo lane, Pantheon can come out of a 1v2 with almost always at least one kill, when your jungler comes to help he just pushes him farther ahead. If the jungler never comes, he'll just tower dive you once you get there. Pantheon's 1v1 strength isn't why his late game is terrible, plenty of champions have even stronger 1v1's and turn into hypercarries late. It's the fact that almost any reasonable engagements involving pantheon before level 11 are essentially instant losses.
Honestly, if you could let Pantheon w to allies, his dominance would be untouched early, and late game he could be a split-pushing god due to the above reasons and his semi global ult, like a more assassin-like Tf. Right now the problem with that is there isn't really a way for him to do anything if you send your team to stop him, other than his movespeed and his jump away that is really long to windup and easy to interrupt.


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SanSarra

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post

I feel like this is a valid point. His base stats (other than move speed) aren't particularly impressive, so even though his AD ratios are absurd, it feels like you cannot utilize them because of how risky engaging with him is. Many people have offered the suggestion that we improve or buff his Aegis in teamfights, and although I don't know how we would do that without dramatically increasing his power level, that seems like a good direction to explore.
I've been thinking about this and i was wondering if panth's W could be Irelia's passive alike.

I mean, like blocks auto every 7 attacks/spells, -1 attack/spell for each champion nearby.

That would make 2 spells for it to trigger if the 5 champions are around, which would make him tankier in TF, which is as you stated a big weakness of pantheon (would help for dives aswell). But in lane, it would prevent constant dives/ harassment abuse which are also a panth problem atm.

Some may say this is OP, but it's kinda the same of how Mordekaiser works in some way.

What do you think?


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

10-23-2013

hey FpMcgee, I would love to hear your thoughts on why Mantheon has such a high move speed in comparison to most other fighters. I personally feel it is unnecessary on him and gives him an unfair advantage in most matchups. Is there a reason why panth needs this extra movespeed?


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Mechanikatt

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldmanj View Post
hey FpMcgee, I would love to hear your thoughts on why Mantheon has such a high move speed in comparison to most other fighters. I personally feel it is unnecessary on him and gives him an unfair advantage in most matchups. Is there a reason why panth needs this extra movespeed?
Same reason why Nunu has a much higher movespeed compared to Cho, Amumu, Blitz, Naut, Malphite, and Maokai.


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Nureru

Senior Member

10-23-2013

As much as I adore pantheon, I think even considering any changes ought to wait until after the season 4 changes go through and see how that affects him


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009Deathwolf

Senior Member

10-23-2013

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