Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Auryiel

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10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Here's where I'll probably take some flack...

I think the differentiation between good Pantheons and average Pantheons is massive. Proper usage of his passive, knowing the exact damage quantities at which an all-in is an option, modifying your build to deal with a variety of different lane matchups...The actual gameplay may feel somewhat binary (that I don't disagree with) but the metagame around playing as and against Pantheon is extremely engaging in my opinion.

Knowing if/when to trade, how to respond, how to play against a semi-global pressure...

I think Pantheon is non-binary, and very healthy for the 5 v 5 strategic game. He may have problems with feel in the tactical game though.
Sorry, but how does that make Pantheon different than any other champion?

It just seems like Pantheon is one of those really brainless champions that only requires general game skill (things you need to be successful in general like game knowledge, ability to adapt your build/playstyle, etc.).

Litteraly the only thing I can see making the difference between a Challenger Pantheon that doesn't main Panth and a Challenger Pantheon that mains Panth is the latter will be a bit better than the former because he's so used to playing the champ. Compare to a champ like Syndra or Lee Sin, even at Challenger level the difference between someone who just picks Syndra or Lee from time to time and someone who mains them will be HUGE.


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Mechanikatt

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindAeris View Post
Does Pantheon honestly need changes before Fiora?
Fiora needs to get her ult fixed (invulnerable in ult, can't miss (looking at you, Jax), doesn't randomly stop due to loss of sight (brush too strong)) and have her W block on-hit effects or perhaps even targeted spells.

Don't understand why this wasn't done yet :|


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Priamos

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.
While I understand if you do, I hope you don't stop interacting with the community because of trolls like that person.

I disagree with you to some extent on how to play Pantheon, but there are MANY ways to play him (right now, Jambalia in Diamond 1 is doing some crazy build with Mob Boots and Brut/LW/Hydra), and everyone's gotta do what works for them.


I think that Pantheon's Heartseeker, if you can get it off, is really strong. IMO Panth is best paired with a strong lategame AD Carry, so he can use HSS' damage to deter diving Bruisers, as well as snowball the AD with his ult. The problem is that it can be very difficult to do that lategame, and it feels really bad to get instabursted while contributing nothing. I think a bit of passive Armor/MR on Aegis (or, as someone suggested, contingent on a successful ult) could help him there.


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Priamos

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryiel View Post
Sorry, but how does that make Pantheon different than any other champion?

It just seems like Pantheon is one of those really brainless champions that only requires general game skill (things you need to be successful in general like game knowledge, ability to adapt your build/playstyle, etc.).

Litteraly the only thing I can see making the difference between a Challenger Pantheon that doesn't main Panth and a Challenger Pantheon that mains Panth is the latter will be a bit better than the former because he's so used to playing the champ. Compare to a champ like Syndra or Lee Sin, even at Challenger level the difference between someone who just picks Syndra or Lee from time to time and someone who mains them will be HUGE.
Yeah, uh, you're clearly not a Pantheon player. There's a lot to learning him, just as there's a lot to learning any champ.

And there's a reason why there are only 3 Pantheon players at Diamond I (1 probably being a smurf of the second): he's really difficult to play.


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Eph289

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10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Sure!

1. Pantheon is very strongly gated early game by his mana costs. My 2 starting builds are either faerie Charm + 3 hp/3 mp pots + ward, or long sword + 1 hp/1 mp. My all in capability is MUCH stronger with the 2nd, but my sustained harass is much stronger in the first. Playing as or vs a Shen/Malphite/Cho/Renekton dramatically changes this dynamic depending upon what i'm trying to accomplish, and my role on the team. Playing AGAINST this, I know the questions I'm considering as a pantheon player, and my decisions as to how to manage my resources, and whether I'm going to try to outlast his mana pool, bait a hard engage then have my jungler gank.

2. I try not to play mages against pantheon, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Mages like Malzahar (safe farming with E) or Swain (sustain from ultimate, point and click slow/damage, really likes catalyst and Zhonya's). Other matchups don't go as well, but that's sort of Pantheon's role: the ability to counter and dominate many mid-mages.

Knowing that Pantheon is a champion that is perceived to fall off, does knowing that change your perspective for playing against him? Or does that fall by the wayside due to frustration when you're actually playing against him?
#1 doesn't really seem relevant to mid, because there's no point to outlasting his mana pool if you can't trade evenly.

#2 I don't care how much Pantheon falls off. I hate that if you got counter-picked in mid by Pantheon, the appropriate counterplay beyond level 2 is try and harass from beyond 700 range or else just be zoned until he runs out of mana, or hope your jungler ganks. You basically don't get to play the game because the threat of Pantheon is too high--it's like the nastier AD version of old LeBlanc. There's not really a lot you can do against him if he beats you in a trade/all in. There's no skill to dodge (Charm, Living Shadow) and unlike say, Fizz pre-6 his combo leads with a targeted CC. AP Sion is in a similar spot, but at least you have a chance of popping his shield.


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
13 of 18 Riot Posts

Disclaimer: still not a designer, and still not working on Pantheon in any way, merely a Pantheon enthusiast.

One of the repeated themes from this conversation is that Pantheon is positioned weirdly between a bruiser and an Assassin. His passive suggests auto-attack trading bruiser, but his lack of escapes, and other defensive steroids cause him to explode when focused in a teamfight, and he's particularly susceptible to peels because he only has 1 gap closer, and his full rotation takes 3 seconds to pull off.

I feel like this is a valid point. His base stats (other than move speed) aren't particularly impressive, so even though his AD ratios are absurd, it feels like you cannot utilize them because of how risky engaging with him is. Many people have offered the suggestion that we improve or buff his Aegis in teamfights, and although I don't know how we would do that without dramatically increasing his power level, that seems like a good direction to explore. The question that brings up is whether that can be done in a way which solidifies his role in either direction, or if simply buffing both is a good thing (I doubt that it is tbh).

A second concern is that his early game feels abusive to play against for players who don't counterpick (this is likely a bigger problem in blind pick than draft mode, which is what I play most). The general feeling is that his strong early game requires a relatively weaker late game.

I think this is part of what differentiates Pantheon from other picks. Generally speaking, Pantheon isn't picked for his late game prowess, or even his ability to blow up an ADC. There are definitely other champions that do that better. That said, very few can apply a similar amount of global pressure. This relative power level throughout the game provides different strategic options for a Pantheon pick, and/or team composition including him. I don't have a clear answer as to how to balance these things, but my bigger question is should we? Would moving Pantheon out of his role as lane bully that falls off improve the game and the options you have as a player? Or does that role fit within LoL? I don't honestly know but I think the pros outweigh the cons in this particular case.


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icraig33 View Post
that is an ability-que bug that they fixed that back when Garen got reworked.

It saddens me greatly
Ah thanks for filling me in man

Too bad


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Dyto

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Disclaimer: still not a designer, and still not working on Pantheon in any way, merely a Pantheon enthusiast.

One of the repeated themes from this conversation is that Pantheon is positioned weirdly between a bruiser and an Assassin. His passive suggests auto-attack trading bruiser, but his lack of escapes, and other defensive steroids cause him to explode when focused in a teamfight, and he's particularly susceptible to peels because he only has 1 gap closer, and his full rotation takes 3 seconds to pull off.

I feel like this is a valid point. His base stats (other than move speed) aren't particularly impressive, so even though his AD ratios are absurd, it feels like you cannot utilize them because of how risky engaging with him is. Many people have offered the suggestion that we improve or buff his Aegis in teamfights, and although I don't know how we would do that without dramatically increasing his power level, that seems like a good direction to explore. The question that brings up is whether that can be done in a way which solidifies his role in either direction, or if simply buffing both is a good thing (I doubt that it is tbh).

A second concern is that his early game feels abusive to play against for players who don't counterpick (this is likely a bigger problem in blind pick than draft mode, which is what I play most). The general feeling is that his strong early game requires a relatively weaker late game.

I think this is part of what differentiates Pantheon from other picks. Generally speaking, Pantheon isn't picked for his late game prowess, or even his ability to blow up an ADC. There are definitely other champions that do that better. That said, very few can apply a similar amount of global pressure. This relative power level throughout the game provides different strategic options for a Pantheon pick, and/or team composition including him. I don't have a clear answer as to how to balance these things, but my bigger question is should we? Would moving Pantheon out of his role as lane bully that falls off improve the game and the options you have as a player? Or does that role fit within LoL? I don't honestly know but I think the pros outweigh the cons in this particular case.
What about the fact that his late game cant be buffed without first nerfing his early game?

He needs changes so leaving him alone is not an option. He needs changes BECAUSE hes too strong of a lane bully, needs to be counterpicked or wins any lane matchup that's inherently toxic playstyle.

He needs some changes, hes like a late game nasus the first 20 minutes of the game but he only conditionally falls off if he's an idiot or he hasnt snowballed every lane ( when does panth NOT do this? )


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-23-2013
14 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
If you were expecting it why were you acting like you didn't expect it?

+ snip
I want to respond to real concerns and get real feedback, and give my perspective. There's a difference between constructive dialog and disagreement and non-beneficial snipes.

Thanks to all the people who have weighed in, especially other Pantheon players who clearly have a variety of different experiences and expecations.


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CatchMeIHavCandy

Senior Member

10-23-2013

I think we just need to fit him into a specific role. Like you said, he isn't bruiser nor assassin, and because of that he loses out on some of the traits that allow either of those to be survivable in team fights. Assassins can pop in, kill something and pop out. Bruisers can generally last through all the damage unless they get full focus. Pantheon only has Grand Skyfall to pop in and turn a teamfight to his team's favor. If he misses or if the enemy disengages long enough to dodge, then he spent his escape tool and is now in a bad spot to be.