Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Nuclear Dragon

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I think the differentiation between good Pantheons and average Pantheons is massive. Proper usage of his passive, knowing the exact damage quantities at which an all-in is an option, modifying your build to deal with a variety of different lane matchups...The actual gameplay may feel somewhat binary (that I don't disagree with) but the metagame around playing as and against Pantheon is extremely engaging in my opinion.

Knowing if/when to trade, how to respond, how to play against a semi-global pressure...
I agree. Maybe I didn't articulate properly. As you said the gameplay feels binary (that's how I should have phrased it), ESPECIALLY to play AGAINST since you have no means to dodge anything. However, you're right in that I should have given a shout-out to the metagame. As Pantheon, you have to know how to trade and what fights you can win, and I'm okay with that going into changes. Whenever he may get changes, I believe he should still retain the inability to escape... because Spartans never retreat! I'm more on the receiving end of Pantheon rather than the playing end, so my input is limited, but I understand that he needs a little love.


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Sure!

1. Pantheon is very strongly gated early game by his mana costs. My 2 starting builds are either faerie Charm + 3 hp/3 mp pots + ward, or long sword + 1 hp/1 mp. My all in capability is MUCH stronger with the 2nd, but my sustained harass is much stronger in the first. Playing as or vs a Shen/Malphite/Cho/Renekton dramatically changes this dynamic depending upon what i'm trying to accomplish, and my role on the team. Playing AGAINST this, I know the questions I'm considering as a pantheon player, and my decisions as to how to manage my resources, and whether I'm going to try to outlast his mana pool, bait a hard engage then have my jungler gank.

2. I try not to play mages against pantheon, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Mages like Malzahar (safe farming with E) or Swain (sustain from ultimate, point and click slow/damage, really likes catalyst and Zhonya's). Other matchups don't go as well, but that's sort of Pantheon's role: the ability to counter and dominate many mid-mages.

Knowing that Pantheon is a champion that is perceived to fall off, does knowing that change your perspective for playing against him? Or does that fall by the wayside due to frustration when you're actually playing against him?
knowing that he falls off late game makes me being patient and literaly suffer early game in order to reach the point when he falls off, and not because I got outplayed, but because I had no ability to outplay him. I don't think it's a good place for a champion to be at. I think the limiting factor of his late game is the frustration he causes early game, LeBlanc syndrome. Fortunately her latest changes removed the amount of frustration playing against her early game, added counterplay and made her scale to late game much better, she's in a much better place than she was before.
The problem with panth is not his lack of build options, but kit toxicity that doesn't allow his to be strong late game.


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Icraig33

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
Can't you use W when the grey circle from ult appears, and your range on W is extended anyways? You should jump even further than the range of the ring.
that is an ability-que bug that they fixed that back when Garen got reworked.

It saddens me greatly


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Aphoristic

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

If only there was an AD Athene's to help Pantheon...


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ActualLee

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.
I think that really you're gonna find some negativity anywhere and instead of replying to it you should just shrug it off and pay attention to the people who have real points and all the other members who appreciate you or really any red that comes on here to say anything. Especially if they're not even giving you anything to improve on and just shutting down your opinion then its really not worth paying attention to in my opinion. But yeah, the majority of us do appreciate you guys


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Foxley

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Lane dominance: Outside of 4 matchups (Cho'Gath, Malphite, Renekton, Ryze), it's hard for me to think of a non-favorable one,
You forgot Yorick. I'd actually rather go against any of those 4 than go against Yorick as Pantheon. You're just zoned, outsustained and held down the very second you step into lane.


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Mechanikatt

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Let me drop in my 2 cents as someone who played Pantheon all the way from Bronze 1 to Diamond 5 (relevant thread about that).

I agree with the notion that it's NOT true that Pantheon "drops off hard lategame". He progresses more into a splitpush assassin role if it gets to lategame. However, his early game is often strong enough to make sure a lategame doesn't even happen. While his early-to-midgame is very gated by mana (unless you convince your allies to give you the blue buff), I disagree with building any significant mana regeneration.

Math behind it:

Faerie Charm = 180 gold, provides 3 mana per 5 as regeneration.
Mana Potions = 35 gold, provides 100 mana over 15 seconds.

For the cost of a single Faerie Charm, you could've instead bought 5 Mana Potions (35*5 = 175). These will provide you 500 mana whenever you so choose. In order for the Faerie Charm to provide the same amount of mana regeneration, you'd have to have it for (500/3)*5 = 833,33 seconds. In other words, your faerie charm will restore the same amount of mana as your mana potions after having it for 14 minutes.

Upgrading a Faerie Charm into a Tear of the Goddess is a waste of money (it hampers your early game too much while you should be snowballing with items like Brutalizer or Last Whisper to kill people faster), and upgrading it into a Chalice of Harmony is only a very situational benefit with the MR (but offers no bonuses in killing people other than having more mana to poke them down over time).


Having said that, I agree that his early-game is super strong if you remove the limiations of the mana gate (which in League of Legends is very easily done) and can make playing against him very un-fun. To make matters worse, he's able to roam with his near-global ganks once he reaches 6. To me, the combination of these factors makes Pantheon a very strong and underrated champion to play. In solo-queue, that is.

His shield may seem powerful, but its very nature is circumstantial. Pantheon may be strong, but only to squishy enemies. His passive may be 100% block, but only to attacks (or spells that mimic attacks such as Ezreal's Mystic Shot). The fact that he has no real escape (Zed has his shadow, Kassadin has slow + ult, Ahri has charm + ult, Talon has slow + ult, etc) means he's very vulnerable to ganks, but suggestions like "make his W be able to jump to allies" feels wrong thematically. Pantheon will outright destroy virtually anyone 1v1 (excluding some specific cases as RiotFpMcgee mentioned), but has zero tools to escape when HE'S the victim. There's the counterplay against his powerful early. A counterplay that is almost trivial in any serious team, which is why Pantheon is so immensely underplayed in tournaments.

I've seen some suggestions, and thought about some of them. One remark was that it's too easy to escape Pantheon's E if you didn't use your W to stun someone in place beforehand. Allowing Pantheon to move during E is one possibility, but another (as was also suggested) would be to add a slow to it. This would make it function a bit similar to Talon's rake. and provide him with a soft escape in case of a gank. Some people complained about his ult having a long charge-up time. Part of this is true, but you don't want to give Pantheon an instant escape (which is why Rengar's ult was nerfed some time ago). Perhaps a similar system to the stealth is in order? 1 second, plus an additional 0.5 seconds from each champion hit up to a maximum of 3 seconds? Maybe make it scale depending on how far he is planning to jump? The targeting warning in advance is fair enough, it just requires some clever thinking and predicting of enemy movement to aim that correctly.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be to make his passive a bit more impactful - although a very tiny bit. You could add single target spells to the list of things blocked. This won't give him a massive power boost against most champions, but could make his passive a bit more useful during teamfights (when there's also spells flying around). Right now, the only way to make his passive useful is to jump onto the enemy ADC and try to fight him while his team hopefully doesn't kill you in the meantime. It's pretty much a guaranteed suicide mission given that Pantheon has no real escape, but that's the price of glory. Spartans are used to that.


If Riot would want to go far out, I would suggest making the passive a more powerful version of Banshee's Veil (blocks first attack or spell) but only when facing the target, making his Q cooldown 1 sec more (you can spam it too much right now), make his W scale with armor, E as it is but usable while moving, and making his ultimate scale with max HP.

This means people get to choose whether they want to be more of a mobile assassin that focuses on damage, or be the unrelenting Spartan that holds his ground with impunity. That would be cool.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR:

- Pantheon is not bad late, but is very weak early against teamwork due to his lack of escape.
- Building mana regeneration is useless. Potions are the way.
- Too much of Pantheon's power on Q and E.
- His entire build revolves around building damage and go all-in, but this is completely suicidal. Some tankiness is required but feels lackluster.


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Merckseys

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Honestly, in my opinion just give him back full global presence with his ulti. Tf and shen both get these perks, and as i read somewhere earlier you said pan is basically an ad tf. Hes fine where he is. Hes meant to be a glass cannon feared from any point on the map thanks to mandrop, if you want to play tank pantheon go play shen, same global presence etc.


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WindAeris

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Does Pantheon honestly need changes before Fiora?


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Wyl

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Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Sure!

1. Pantheon is very strongly gated early game by his mana costs. My 2 starting builds are either faerie Charm + 3 hp/3 mp pots + ward, or long sword + 1 hp/1 mp. My all in capability is MUCH stronger with the 2nd, but my sustained harass is much stronger in the first. Playing as or vs a Shen/Malphite/Cho/Renekton dramatically changes this dynamic depending upon what i'm trying to accomplish, and my role on the team. Playing AGAINST this, I know the questions I'm considering as a pantheon player, and my decisions as to how to manage my resources, and whether I'm going to try to outlast his mana pool, bait a hard engage then have my jungler gank.

2. I try not to play mages against pantheon, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Mages like Malzahar (safe farming with E) or Swain (sustain from ultimate, point and click slow/damage, really likes catalyst and Zhonya's). Other matchups don't go as well, but that's sort of Pantheon's role: the ability to counter and dominate many mid-mages.

Knowing that Pantheon is a champion that is perceived to fall off, does knowing that change your perspective for playing against him? Or does that fall by the wayside due to frustration when you're actually playing against him?
First of all, you really should read my post on page 21 HERE

Now to go through your post here,

Fairie Charm start is only good if you plan to get an early Spirit of elder lizard, which isn't as strong as it used to be, but it still works quite well on Pantheon (regens, AD, CDR).
Try Crystalline Flask + 1-3 potions + a ward (depending on amount of potions bought).
Long Sword + 2 pots will rarely be efficient enough, maybe against squishy mages like Veigar that could be exploitable.
He's not that gated mana-wise early for the damage/harass he has.

Furthermore, you shouldn't be picking Pantheon top knowing that you're going into a heavy tank matchup, that's just calling for a loss because even if you can harass them hard early, they'll eventually outscale you and still be able to withstand most of your damage no matter what. If you want to first pick Pantheon, you have to use his versatility, make them think " oh is he top, mid, jungle, support ? " work with your team to ensure they don't necessarily erase too many options too early, until you find a favorable matchup either mid or top.

There's literally no BAD matchup for a Pantheon mid, the only "mage" that can withstand him and still farm quite well is Gragas. Other than that you pretty much have to send people that can deal with him, which are bruisers. Which will force him to either endure the matchup to keep the global advantage or go top and try and get fed whilst zoning the other mage. Swain and Malzahar can farm, yes, but a good Pantheon will just stand between creep waves and Q you when you come close to a point where you have 30 cs when he has 70.

So, at the risk of repeating what I said in my other post, he NEEDS to be nerfed early to allow buffs elsewhere.