Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Erronius

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
I don't actually!

Although, comments like this make me much less apt to interact in threads like this.

I don't doubt that my perspective is incomplete, which is why I'm asking for feedback and trying to drive discussion.

This comment does not help me do that at all, and only makes me regret posting my perspective in the first place.
This issue is that you have, repeatedly, voiced your opinion about Pantheon's state of balance. It wouldn't be an issue honestly, if you would just directly respond to the "great feedback" (you know, the dozens of posts detailing why Pantheon needs work) instead of just repeating what you've already said, maybe we would feel like this thread is actually going somewhere. At least acknowledge good feedback and present a counter-argument if you still aren't convinced!

Morello is always very direct when he asks for reasons why people dislike a certain champion in its current state, and if someone types out a detailed essay essentially that includes numbers and a logical argument -he gives it the time of day.

Now I get you don't actually have a hand in the rework, and can only pass on information -but you have to see it from our point of view. You've maintained the same argument in spite of a veritable wall of data talking about why Pantheon isn't as great as you think he is.. It just looks like you haven't taken any of that feedback into consideration, which is frustrating.

I personally like Pantheon, and can do well with him -but that doesn't stop me from looking at a stack of information telling me what's missing and going "y'know, I feel it."

Pantheon has been less satisfying to play ever since you fellows changed his kit from an all in Assassin kit, with tons of damage on HSS to a bruiser AD-caster with homogenized power levels and a tenth of his former map presence.


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Dyto

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Pantheon needs nerfs to his beyond godlike early game....

Anybody that wants just flat buffs for panth is an idiot


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Mjolnir802

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nacholikesthed View Post
I agree with your first statement, but no with the W suggestion. First of all, what is Pantheon supposed to be, an assassin or a bruiser? If the answer is assassin, the an armor scaling would be completely out of place. The best way to open itemization on Pantheon is to make him scale better into lategame (at the cost of some early game power). This would allow Pantheon players to buy something other than damage.
I disagree that he is a pure assassin. I see him as fitting in the same realm as Wukong and less so J4, somewhere between assassin and bruiser. I mean he carries a big ass spear and shield, not the arm blades of zed, talon, or kass. He is an in-your-face fighter, not someone who stalks in the shadows waiting to instagib his target. I would rather keep his options open, not pigeon hole him into a counter-mage assassin.

Also changing W to armor scaling from AP scaling wont hurt his assassin style at all. The only AP item anyone builds on Panth atm is Sheen/Tri, and that is for the mana and spellblade proc. This change only opens up bruiser Pantheon to be more viable.


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Erronius

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyto View Post
Pantheon needs nerfs to his beyond godlike early game....

Anybody that wants just flat buffs for panth is an idiot
I hear he dominated at World's.

Oh wait....


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Cliff Walrus

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Here's where I'll probably take some flack...

0s and 1s

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
*Is upset when correct and called on said flack*
If you were expecting it why were you acting like you didn't expect it?


Mantheon has a bunch of stuff going for him, lots of his kit leans him towards an assassin (100% crit under 15% target hp, double damage E on champs HELLO!?) I just don't think he's a good bruiser or a good fighter, sure you CAN build him that way but he doesn't have much utility and none of his skills make him beefy like Singed, Malphite or Cho; and he gets out classed by Trynd, Aatrox and Jax as a fighter. I mean the entire combo is spear/stun/heartseeker/spear. Does that sound light a fighter or a bruiser to anybody?

The last 3 times I saw panth in game:
One guy built Zephyr mobiboots and PD.
One guy lost lane to Trynd
One guy only used his ult to jump into the fountain before it was over.


The pattern is its not easy to make use of his ult to get around the map, because the reward is too low for it.


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InverseChirality

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Simply put: mid mages are an a generally awful place right now precisely because Pantheon and Fizz, et al, hard counter too many mages too easily. This is a big problem.


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Dyto

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erronius View Post
I hear he dominated at World's.

Oh wait....
I heard that's all that matters when balance is concerned...

Oh wait....


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Nacholikesthed

Junior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Sure!

1. Pantheon is very strongly gated early game by his mana costs. My 2 starting builds are either faerie Charm + 3 hp/3 mp pots + ward, or long sword + 1 hp/1 mp. My all in capability is MUCH stronger with the 2nd, but my sustained harass is much stronger in the first. Playing as or vs a Shen/Malphite/Cho/Renekton dramatically changes this dynamic depending upon what i'm trying to accomplish, and my role on the team. Playing AGAINST this, I know the questions I'm considering as a pantheon player, and my decisions as to how to manage my resources, and whether I'm going to try to outlast his mana pool, bait a hard engage then have my jungler gank.

2. I try not to play mages against pantheon, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Mages like Malzahar (safe farming with E) or Swain (sustain from ultimate, point and click slow/damage, really likes catalyst and Zhonya's). Other matchups don't go as well, but that's sort of Pantheon's role: the ability to counter and dominate many mid-mages.

Knowing that Pantheon is a champion that is perceived to fall off, does knowing that change your perspective for playing against him? Or does that fall by the wayside due to frustration when you're actually playing against him?
1. I would like to add that, while Pantheon's early low mana pool is completely understandable, he shouldn't be spending most of his mana pool whenever he uses his ult + combo mid game. I actually feel that either his mana per level should be increased, or his ult cost should be decreased.

2. Absolutely. With the current state Pantheon's in, many rivals objective should be merely to survive lane phase.


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Erronius

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyto View Post
I heard that's all that matters when balance is concerned...

Oh wait....
There's over two dozen deeply detailed posts in this thread that outline mathematically why Pantheon is in a bad spot, it isn't our fault you refuse to read lol.

But then, I'm the idiot right? So that means you don't have to back up your stilted attempt at an argument.

Hah.


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Dyto

Senior Member

10-23-2013

Panth can get late game buffs, but they must be countered with heavy early game nerfs. In other words he needs a full rework, his early game is easily the strongest in the game right now. No AD can beat him in lane and very few tanks and mages can beat him in lane. Pantheon gets a better version of fiora's riposte every couple seconds for free. Pantheon has execution, high damage ( both base and scaling ) and he has a semi global skill which DEALS DAMAGE!

Pantheon does NOT need straight buffs, anybody telling you he does just wants even easier freelo, he MIGHT fall off slightly late game, but that's only when you compare his late hame to his early game. Comparing to other champions and how much they have a trade off early and late game he doesnt fall off at all.

His early game is WAY too strong instant lane win, and his late game is STILL strong. Listen, you don't want pantheon getting straight buffs he doesnt need it, he needs a complete rebalance one that mutes his godlike early game and gives him a better feeling late game.