Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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F0rel

Junior Member

10-22-2013

My recommendations are as follows:

Heartseeker Strike (E):
-"Certain Death" passive removed.

The reason for this change is the addition of an AD ratio on Aegis of Zeona to provide consistency to his kit.

Aegis of Zeonia (E):
-Now has a small AD ratio (0.25) consistent with his role as an AD caster.
-Now is able to be used on either an allied OR enemy champion.
-When used on an enemy champion, deals 25/50/75/100/125(+.2) physical damage, and stuns for 1.0 second, and Pantheon receives a 5/10/15/20/25% reduction to incoming damage for 2.0 seconds.
-When used on an allied champion, provides a 5/10/15/20/25% reduction to incoming damage for 2.0 seconds to both Pantheon and the allied champion.

The reason for this change is to provide Pantheon with additional mobility in team fights. Pantheon must now decide whether to stun and damage a high-priority target or shield his carry and himself with a damage reduction buffer.

Grand Skyfall (R):
-Maximum Damage reduced to 200/350/500 (+50% AP)
-Minimum Damage reduced to 100/175/250 (+100% AP)
-Enemy champions within the indicated radius of impact before Pantheon's impact now immediately slowed by 30% movement speed for the duration and another 1 second if they are caught within Pantheon's impact radius.

The reason for this change allows Pantheon more team utility to his ult and a much larger chance of impacting the actual location of the team fight. Counter play still exists with the reduced damage done and maintenance of the channel and impact times.


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vokkyt

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Senior Member

10-22-2013

I'm late to this party, but Pantheon is a fun pick for me, and I think he does fairly well as is. I do want to address your questions/concerns though as I feel that the aggregate questions are based on slightly inaccurate premises.

Quote:
1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
I see this as intended design, and it allows for there to be more of a strength budget for him (if I can abuse terminology here). Some of the most satisfying Pantheon play is tearing through champions by the skin of your teeth, pouncing around battles and wiggly-spearing/spear fishing your way to kill streaks. Every bit of design about Pantheon shows that he's a character that brute-forces his way through a challenge, through strength and prowess. His cool downs, especially for his passive, are low enough that he should be able to be a continual stream of burst damage and stuns as he maneuvers the battle.

I think this is perhaps an issue that a lot of people are having in that he's not a set-and-forget character. His high base movement speed, his gap closer, and the ridiculously generous spear targeting allow for him to be a fairly agile character. If any changes are made, I'd like to see something which better addresses this. Pantheon should be about physical prowess and battle intuition. He's not a "tactician" like Swain, he's a warrior on the front lines, and his kit should reflect someone who is the peak of physical prowess for combat. Something which allows him to better utilize speed may be possible, but I honestly think he's fine as is. Players shouldn't be staying still as pantheon -- they should be ducking about, using the bushes, using fog of war and clever positioning to succeed in fights.

Pantheon should be able to find his way into a battle and get the target he needs, then just harass the rest of the team. Ultimately, I don't think this is as much of an issue as people make it out to be, and rather that his contemporaries perhaps are a little too slippery and have too many means of negating damage compared to Pantheon. (Basically, you compare Pantheon to Zed, Zed can disjoint with his abilities, Pantheon cannot, not even with mandrop(he can die mid jump)). I think that's the frustration, and I'm not sure how to best approach it. His passive feels right for what he does, but perhaps it can be tweaked upwards to avoid auto attacks for .5s or .75s after his W or R? This would still leave him vulnerable to casters while giving him a stronger use case for plunging in to get at marksmen. This may be too strong for 1v1 situations, especially early game. It's just a thought. Regardless, I think the frustration isn't that "he's too squishy", it's that his contemporaries have better mitigation than he does, and that's and understandable frustration.


Quote:
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
I flat out disagree with this. It's not hard to land, it's just hard to use effectively, and it's kind of a noob trap with the damage. Instinctively, you look at the damage and think "Alright, if I don't center it, I'm wasting my time and an ability", but the strength of the ultimate has always been in its utility. Because of the casting radius, Pantheon has the unique ability to really cut off all escapes, and it has a strong psychological impact as he can decide what he wants to do with his jump.

For me the jump is a chase/positioning tool/scare tactic/utility. You circumvent traditional front line defenses, you circumvent towers and land barriers, you circumvent champs you want to avoid. And you do damage on top of that, tons of damage. There is so much going on with this ability that I think there should be a lot of challenge in making it used effectively. If anything had to go or be changed, I'd personally want more utility on the drop (Pantheon makes this huge booming drop as he lands...why isn't there a small knock up besides power budget reasons?) But I'm fine with it as is. Even seasoned players are going to end up in positions where Pantheon has an ideal drop zone, and this is how it should be. If the ability were redesigned to do everything at once reliably (damage, utility, positioning, movement), I feel it would be too strong, and that the response would be to either remove power elsewhere in Pantheon or tweak the less clear aspects of the jump (casting from the sky, for example; smite steals from 20,000 ft are spectacular for Pantheon).

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that perhaps Panth should get increased ranges on his Q and W while in mid air, and I think this is perhaps a safe way to increase his tactical usefulness, though I'm not sure how readable this is to new players, and I can appreciate that being too problematic.

Quote:
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.
I touched on this earlier in response to point 1, and just to reiterate, I don't think that it's an under appreciated passive, it's just that compared to Pantheon's contemporaries, he lacks the same mitigation ability that they do. The problem here is actually that increasing the effectiveness of the passive via numbers only will spike his early game too hard. If the passive is up too often early on, he is overpwhelming to play against if you're not a caster. While we have a decent roster to shove against Pantheon, his base movement speed gives him the reposition ability few other champions have early on.

I would propose that his passive remain the same, but the Passive Proc on W be changed to give a brief defensive window from Auto Attacks(As I mentioned before). I think thematically this feels appropriate, it gives him a good niche to fill later on in game (he can really terrify the marksmen and give pause to fighters), but he's still vulnerable to casters. This does give a lot of strength to his already strong early game though, but not too much. Average attack speed and the numbers I'm imagining will be less than a second -- late game when you have a bunch of marksmen with 1.5+ AS, this means he gets to block at most 3 auto attacks for free. Early on when most people are closer to .7 AS, he's really only getting the one block regardless since the person just cannot produce that many attacks with their early game attack speed.


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Lonesomepear717

Junior Member

10-22-2013

U should make his ult stun or slow because u should get something better than the damage that it gives because it is soo hard to hit.


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

Follow RiotFpMcgee on Twitter

10-22-2013
9 of 18 Riot Posts

Thanks for all the feedback and thoughts all

I'll talk to Live Design and see what thoughts they have. Again this isn't a promise that changes are coming (there's definitely nothing planned) but it's good to get your perspective and feedback!


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CatchMeIHavCandy

Senior Member

10-22-2013

We're not asking for a full fledged rework, just some tiny buffs here or there. Chances are that he's going to be extra dangerous with the upcoming assassin nerfs so we don't want him super buffed. Some QoL stuff. An added effect on one of his skills. I think the majority of the thread posters here can agree he's in a good spot but performing slightly below what he should be


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:


2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?
Can't you use W when the grey circle from ult appears, and your range on W is extended anyways? You should jump even further than the range of the ring.


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Better Ban Sona

Senior Member

10-22-2013

One more thing I would like to note, if it hasn't been said already (admittedly, I haven't read anything but the red posts here).

Being able to W while still dropping down from your ultimate felt really good, but was ultimately considered a bug, and removed from the game. Perhaps bringing this back in as a feature would be something to look at? :O


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Verinitius

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Junior Member

10-22-2013

Considering many ppl think its better to use pantheon's ult to cut off opponents in a chase instead of using it for the damage or actually landing on top of opponents due to both how long it takes to actually land after the circle indicator appears and also the risk of landing in the middle of the enemy team when being so squishy. How about the ult is changed so that it lands faster and any enemies who are in the radius of pantheon when he lands are knocked back with those closer to him being knocked back further. At the same time, make the range of this ult shorter for appropriate balance.

As for the passive, it doesnt seem to scale that well into the later stages of the game. So like vokkyt said above (sorry i duno how to quote) have the passive aegis of protection block not just one autoattack but instead block all autoattacks for a very short window, say anywhere between 0.2-o.8 sec for example. Since it is unlikely that an enemy will have high attack speed in lower levels, it should not affect the early game while at the same time providing better survivability at higher levels and in team fights.

Id love to hear the pros and cons of what i suggested by more senior members


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Eph289

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Senior Member

10-22-2013

All right, so I'm expecting lots and lots of downvotes from Pantheon players, but that's okay.

I've never played Pantheon beyond bot games to understand how his kit works.

I despise laning against Pantheon (talking about mid here). He rates up there with Yorick or lane Nunu in terms of sheer irritation. I'd rather play against Fizz, LeBlanc, or Vlad than Pantheon.

Honestly, the same problems I have with Pantheon, I also have with mid Xin (don't laugh). There's no real fighting these guys early game with most mages. You have a short window before level 3 when they have all their skills to hit them. Otherwise, they do more damage than you, they're more survivable, and don't have to land any skillshots to do it.

Lee Sin mid is some aggravating stuff if you're a mage, but at least he has to actually land his Q to really damage you most of the time. With Pantheon (or Xin), if you're in range of them, you probably lose the trade. To add insult to injury, both Panth and Xin have no problems with getting a splash of early lifesteal to heal back your harass via LS quints, Vamp Scepter, and/or Doran's Blades.

Don't get me wrong, I know that Pantheon falls off if he doesn't do well in laning phase, but when playing against him, I would really like to do something more than "get zoned for 15 minutes and hope he runs OOM or the jungler ganks."

I'm incredibly glad that I see Pantheon so rarely, because he makes laning phase such an incredible pain in the butt for the vast majority of mid champions, and there's very little skill required to actually pull off his combo.


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Troy242621

Senior Member

10-22-2013

I'd appreciate W being able to target non-champions. Could be used to escape, and raises the skill ceiling a bit.

(Secret incentive: Buffs Jungle Pantheon :3.)