Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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CatchMeIHavCandy

Senior Member

10-22-2013

And one other small change I'd like to see is him yelling "You disgrace the art of war!" When he crashes down on an enemy. And don't forget an updated Recall if/when he gets a VU


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Mogs01gt

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Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Do you guys still feel like Pantheon doesn't have a good niche/role within the scope of the game? What specifically do you think he fails at? And by the same token, what do you think is core to what makes Pantheon Pantheon?
My issues is his mana consumption and he lack of damage mid to late game. Bonus AD scaling is not a good design and other assassin type champs do his job better.

Also his ult doesnt have much team fight presence.


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TastyPotatoX

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
maybe make his passive like irelia. Wit hX number of champions around the cooldown on his passive is reduced by X seconds?


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Arandom13yearold

Member

10-22-2013

Pantheon is fine, you just gotta use his stun as an initiate and his ult as an initiate, riot gave him this kit so he can kill people with his R > W > E > Q combo which can kill quite alot when you build a buncha damage


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Mjolnir802

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
Hey, FpMcgee! You should talk with the Parrot (@IronStylus) about updates for Pantheon. He has talked about Panth getting a VU in the future and probably some lore updates for Mt. Targon and Leona/Diana. If you are looking to make some kit changes, this could be a good time for a full rework, and a fairly low risk one at that.

As far as his gameplay, I love the idea of his W scaling off armor. It rewards a tankier build, and helps the scaling later. Also an early Glacial Shrould would be Pantheons best friend. Another addition to consider is allowing Panth to jump to wards/allies with W, but not refresh his passive if he does. It might be too much, just a thought.

For his ultimate, the time between the channel and the landing just feels awkward at times. Maybe you could adjust it like Zigg's Mega Inferno Bomb, were the further you travel, the longer the time between cast and landing. That way you can gank from just outside a lane much faster, but going halfway across the map takes a little more time.


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Shadow Master

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Anything that scales off armor is something I would support, since I build Pantheon in a manner that corresponds to his creative concept: damage AND defenses all in one robust, experienced warrior.

Sure, Pantheon has an imposing, sharp spear, but he also wields a shield.

To that end, I build him with just enough defensive masteries and runes and items to reduce auto-attack damage as much as possible without sacrificing damage capability too much.

I also grab a Doran's Shield at the start.

I find this works very, very well in top lane, because of the abundance of auto-attackers, tanks, and fighters.

Of course, this sort of build does make him a bit vulnerable to casters (which I usually solve with a Maw of Malmortius, but clearly, there's room for some improvement anyway).

I absolutely love playing Pantheon (<3 Glaive Warrior Pantheon <3), and I was surprised to find out how effective a build that was inspired by his creative ocncept has proven to be in ranked play.

But of course, I would never say no to some improvements, since while I do enjoy playing him and play him well, it's clear he does end up being a bit lackluster in a number of situations.

I'm also pleasantly surprised to hear that Riot is actually open to the idea of improving Pantheon somehow, since I always thought he would be part of the "each champion has his/her own application" philosophy that results in certain champions basically being nothing more than counter picks against specific other champions.


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Kbalz

Senior Member

10-22-2013

I play a lot of Pantheon. For me, his AoZ (w) and Ultimate are his most frustrating abilities. Some ideas:

AoZ (W) - These are individual ideas.. not to be combined with any other offer, limit one per customer:

  1. Scaling amount of stun time, something small so that at level 5 it is 1.5 seconds. Increases his late game power slightly. Most of the time the W is maxed last.
  2. Add an AoE slow effect around the target, again nothing huge but would help Pantheon stick to his target, and might open up the option for a tanky pantheon to be more of a team-fight engager in late game.
  3. Ability to target enemy minions/monsters - would help his escape slightly in lane or after a burst->escape. Just have it prioritize champions with the mouse over like I've noticed with other champion's abilities.
Ultimate - I find the ultimate most useful for: deep tower diving, getting back to lane faster and clearing a minion wave, repelling a 3/4 champ push off of a turret, monster engaging (dragon, enemy blue etc). Really more for positioning than damage, because most popular champs have high mobility/escapes. The damage is usually on the edge if at all. Some ideas
  1. Lower the damage on it, remove the initial channel time (like Elise, she's just GONE). The hit rate would go up per use.
  2. Temporary Movement Speed and Attack Speed buff upon landing that decays over time
  3. Temporary Armor/MR boost and Spellvamp upon landing
  4. Temporary CDR and Tenacity boost upon landing
  5. Temporary invisibility (kidding here)

Passive - I think the passive is awesome in lane as well. One idea to help his sustain would be that if a champion breaks Aegis Protection, grant a small amount of mana to Pantheon. Its not a health sustain, but mana turns into spears of course The blocked AA is already worth health.

Thanks for reading.


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Zukuu1

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.
He's limited by his pathetic mana threshold throughout the whole game (not just in laning phase), he has NO disengage and NO CC (apart from his W, which only gets him into a fight, not away from one), he needs to channel to get his damage out (thus interrupted by CC) and sub-par waveclear until he gets a few damage items. "Squishiness" is just ANOTHER burden he carries and he's almost impossible to play that way, since he'll just die the moment he engages. Just compare that to other assassins like Zed, Talon, Kassadin, Fizz etc. They ALL can engage a target AND leave a fight (Riftwalk, Living Shadow, Shadow Assault, Trickster). Pantheon can't. He's designed as assassin but needs to be build as Bruiser or Tank, without any benefit from it, apart from a second or more to live. He doesn't scale with HP nor Armor nor M.Res so his damages suffers GREATLY in comparison to other "tank chars" that get damage either via defensive scaling (e.g. Shen with HP), or defense via other stats (e.g. Singed) and/or have passive damage options (e.g. Nasus Q, Darius Bleed) and even then he's a pathetic sub par Tank without much to offer apart from a 1 sec single target stun.

He needs to be build bruiser for the most part, unless he gets incredible snowbally, and even then it's hard to carry a game, since he's so easily dealt with in team fights.

He already has enough flaws, "Squishy" is something he shouldn't have to bear. Either make him more durable (which I'd prefer) and slightly re-design him as a full Bruiser / Fighter or make him a true assassin and give him options to actually deal the damage he needs to in team fights.

Just as suggestions (I'm not on the balance team, so bear with me - just as examples):

Quote:
After his passive proccs, he receives % less damage (or scaling with armor/m.res) from other sources other than the source that activated it. e.g. Vayne procs the passive with the first shot. The 2nd shot still deals 100% damage. Riven's auto attack now deals a bit less damage. Could be just for auto attacks, or all damage sources, or 1 auto attack / spell for each other champ etc.
or

Quote:
while channeling Skyfall, Pantheon focuses immensely and ignores pain, receiving % less damage.
This way he could use it mid-fight to make him less attractive as target and also make some meaningful impact with his ulti. Could scale with the level. xx%/xx%/xx%. Additionally, he could use it as VERY costly disengage when he needs to, wasting his ability to gank elsewhere and having a high CD on it.
This would solve multiple problems at once. Since he can still be interrupted with hard CCs, it also has counter plays. That would solve your 2nd and 3rd point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after using his jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
Some quality of life balance changes I'd like to see, is that he gets more mana reg or base mana / level. It's really pathetic. I dunno why he's mana based to begin with. Feels like he should run on MANPOWER (something like energy, but with a higher pool, that regenerats slower as trade off, unless Pantheon is in the vicinity of an opposing champion, which greatly accelerates it). Would reflect his whole "straight forward into the opponent" approach even better. (I'm just joking, although that is actually a neat idea).

His E is also a liability in his design. As highly mobile character, it feels "off" to have a skill that forces you to stand still. It's practical useless when you chase and results in other champion to just get away from Pantheon easily no matter the circumstances. If it would yield a 0.75 high slow (e.g. 80%) that DECAYS over the 0.75 seconds, it would open up much more plays with Pantheon.
First off, the other target can't run away as good, making it viable in chasing scenarios. Secondly, he could abort his E after the first hit and use the remaining duration to get some distance between him, and the target. Since it's a 0.75 second decaying slow, it won't give him much of a new CC. It's really just there to make the ability a bit better usable.


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CatchMeIHavCandy

Senior Member

10-22-2013

On his Ult, I remember someone suggesting the damage should all be on the edges so they're forced to either fight Pantheon in the middle or try and get out of the ring and possibly be hit by full damage. I actually like that idea a lot as it's amazing initiation and forces enemies to play more strategically and defensively. Ahri for example would need to keep her Ultimate up if she knows Panth's is up or she may end up roadkill fox.


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A2ZOMG

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Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
In order to buff Pantheon, his earlygame must first be made more balanced. There are some matchups he absolutely crushes by design due to his passive giving him incredible early trade potential when combined with "free" poke from Spear Shot.

I personally feel Pantheon needs a Master Yi treatment, in which his passive requires only 3 attacks to proc, but only remains as a temporary buff while in combat. Meaning Pantheon is less encouraged to poke with Spear Shot from safe distances against melees. This thematically would feel better, while improving counterplay. Furthermore Spear Shot should still remain targetted, but have its scaling reworked. It should scale off his total attack damage, but have considerably less base damage so it's weaker earlygame, and then like Lucian Q should have increased scaling lategame. Furthermore, ALL THREE of Pantheon's strikes from E should proc his passive (meaning his passive is refreshed for getting his E off).

His passive then can also be buffed to actually block damage from abilities, which makes him more relevant lategame. Maybe if Pantheon "blocks" an ability, he has tenacity. Either way the goal is giving his passive more lane counterplay, but better defined utility in all-ins.

I fundamentally believe that Pantheon should not be given an escape to instead preserve an all-in playstyle, which is part of the fun of playing him. I like his single target stun the way it is mostly, though to an extent I wish it scaled better while being more mana costly. Also, I would prefer that it is not interrupted by displacement spells if its duration remains only one second, because this makes him too easily countered by champions like Vayne, who can for instance COMPLETELY CANCEL his stun by knocking him back. I feel like when Pantheon walks in range to stun you, you SHOULD be stunned especially given how short duration it is.

Speaking of mana in general, Pantheon's mana costs should be reworked. He should have a larger base mana pool, but be given higher mana costs. The goal is to keep his total all-in ability usage about the same, but make mana regen less impactful on him (because let's be real, Spirit of the Elder Lizard Pantheon has really poor lane counterplay if you go that build path). Also by buffing his base mana, it makes Muramana less pointless on him, improving build options.

Pantheon ultimate, honestly I don't know what can be done about it. Obviously, it's meant to be a ganking ability and that should be preserved, and it definitely has problems of being hard to hit directly. However by making Pantheon better lategame, having a semi-global initiation spell is potentially a bit too good. So at some point it probably needs its ranged nerfed like Nocturne ultimate so that it's actually possible to ward against Pantheon. I'd then reduce the base damage at the center, but increase the AOE and slow duration so that it actually feels satisfying to use and lead fights with.