Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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KatarinaCatKitty

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Give pantheon poppy passive and all is good.


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battleground2

Member

10-21-2013

I think panth is a very strong counter pick and is in a good spot honestly. Maybe give his ult a little faster cast time.


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TFeast55555

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
What if Panth's E procs against champions counted towards his passive? Would give him some added tankiness when executing his combo, and allow him to follow up with the stun for a refreshed block instead of being forced to lead with it. Of course this could cause some issues in lane, but since he can't stack passive charges, seems like it would be okay

Edit: Or, and I'm not the first to suggest this, let his passive block single-target spells. After all, mages tend to be his biggest threat by far in the mid-game


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SkinnerBlade

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Member

10-21-2013

Is Pantheon's ult range causing you guys to hesitate on buffing him?


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Tserris

Senior Member

10-21-2013

The issue with pantheon is that he is an all in ad caster/assassin with much lower damage potential than, say, zed. Pre-season 3, pantheon had poor win rates and was largely considered to be weak, the change to armor penetration and the changes to black cleaver are literally all that happened to aid pantheon.. bottom line is that other champions can build items other than black cleaver and dump a ton more damage out than pantheon can without it, all with far higher levels of safety.

Lets focus on zed specifically. He has a gap closer that slows, modifies his damage output by giving him a percentage of higher AD and also modifies his skills for further damage increases. His gap closer is also an escape. He has far, far better waveclear than pantheon. He has safer harass than pantheon. He is not limited by a mana pool and can harass infinitely and freely use spells to clear waves of minions. His ult is a gap closer, it removes targetability for a moment so he can dodge skillshots with it or things like karthus's ult, and can be used as an escape as well in concert with his W. Zed is harder to play, he has a multi skillshot kit... but come on. He has much higher damage potential than pantheon, far superior waveclear, no mana costs, two on demand gap closers and escapes and pantheon trades all that for what? Slightly higher map presence and a 1.5 second stun? Pantheon isnt even a level below zed in terms of power, safety, and flexibilty -hes levels plural below him.

Pantheon has a simple kit that does one thing. He is one of the most predictable champions in the game and that immediately puts him at a disadvantage because other champions can do the same thing he was designed to do, just with less predictability, more safety, and higher damage. I love pantheon, but where was he in the tournament scene? This year? Last year? The year before that? He's like a ghost, one person chooses him one time and then he's never seen again for the rest of the year... and why? Because he isnt comparable to others designed to do the same job.


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Krosan

Senior Member

10-21-2013

What he needs is less "escape" and more "disengage." If he can't 100-0 someone, or bring them to critical health so they have to flee, he can't get out of a fight; it means that optimally he stands back tossing spears until he can just flatten someone.

This also speaks to his lack of teamfight presence; with absolutely no way to move around in a teamfight beyond his W, any kind of interruption of his damage shuts him out. Other picks seriously crowd him out, and his ult just doesn't feel meaningful enough unless he lands it dead on.

Some thoughts for the ult:

I've thought about a scaling cast time, so that shorter-range ults (a screen or two) can be cast much more quickly. That sounds like it'd be terribly difficult for the Panth player to pick up on, though; having to relearn the timing scale would be tricky.

In that vein, how about making him travel along the map as a visible projectile, a la Ziggs ult? Pantheon performs a brief windup, then launches himself across the map as a visible comet of Rakkor rage. Once he reaches his target location, he slams into the ground and inflicts a brief Terror fear effect on everything in the blast radius; nothing game-winning (perhaps a .25-.5 second terror) but enough to interrupt and cause confusion, and scatter the enemy. The slow associated with Terror would be enough to help him catch his chosen target as well as help create a bit of distance from their allies.

Pantheon's ult, to me, defines him. He's not about half measures, or playing with his opponent; no Akali juke mindgames or Zed evasion. He's the battering ram of assassins, a rage-fueled spear train that hits you like the fist of an angry God.

It's one of my favorite ults in the game, and anything that helps it support that "WHAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!" playstyle, I think, would really help define Pantheon's place among the assassin crew. Even trading off some of the base damage from the ult would be helpful; it's not useful for its damage, and having such a massively inflated damage total on the ult is just a bunch of inaccessible power. It also means that in the rare occasion that Panth's team can lock up an enemy team in the same spot for long enough, he can utterly chunk them all.

Comparing him to people like Zed and Akali is also apples and oranges; they have evasion, but they don't have the THERMONUCLEAR GOOMBA STOMP.


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K1ngslayer

Senior Member

10-21-2013

What can you do about his early game?

Unless you're a champ with a shield like Riven or Shen, it's hard to mitigate damage from his constant spears and even then their shields are on longer CDs early. There's no counterplay here. You can start cloth+5 but honestly, you can't heal that fast enough before he hits level 2 or 3 and then jumps on you with a full combo and ignite.

I think most would agree his early game is stupid and so is his late game.


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battleground2

Member

10-21-2013

Guys pantheon is fine really, why do you want to screw up perfectly fine champs?


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SkinnerBlade

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10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by battleground2 View Post
Guys pantheon is fine really, why do you want to screw up perfectly fine champs?
I want a piece of outclassed trash turned into an actual assassin, tank, or bruiser.


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xProR2D2x

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.
Pantheon is one of my mains in Gold/Plat so these are my 2 cents c:

I play Pantheon mainly in the jungle where his lacks of escapes aren't a problem and I think he is very effective. His clears are 'ok', and his passive works against big monsters. His ganks are strong with his stun and can towerdive effectively with his passive. So as a jungler though, I think his passive actually feels meaningful, and lane isn't useless either. My only problems when playing pantheon are the other two mentioned: the long cast time on his ult, and the lacks of escapes which hinders his mobility a lot (specially in lane). If he was able to use W on minions and had a shorter cast time on his ult he could be a little less predictable and a more viable pick.