Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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velly

Member

10-21-2013

buff mantheon 2013


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.
This is coming from a non-Pantheon main, as someone who only played him a bit when he's free, and played against or with him as an ally. So my experience is limited, but here is my opinion on this.


I agree his damage is pretty terrifyingly high, and his squishiness is justifiable. But my issue is that his image and the way he brings himself tells me a completely different story.

He's a spartan with a massive shield and talks like he's the **** of the walk. For that, I always thought he should be much tankier. Obviously that'd also make him OP.


In short. I feel he should be this squishy considering his CC, mobility, and damage. But I don't like that he's squishy as well because he comes off as someone who should have been tougher and manlier.


Anyways, that's just my 2-cents as a non-main.


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SkinnerBlade

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10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldmanj View Post
In all honesty panth is in a pretty good place right now. Yeah if you go all out assassin you are demolished pretty quickly but never have I considered Mantheon an assassin. His kit simply doesnt read that way. Mantheon is a MAN, He gets in those fights and takes hit and dishes them out like a MAN... not run in hit someone and run away like a coward!

As I said there are not to many issues in my mind with panth. Is his ult really more for catching people running away or out of position? yeah it kind of is, i'm not thrilled with that though. I do think his ult needs to be worked on and I think reducing its diameter or cast range in exchange for quicker cast time and drop would be a fair trade off.

His passive is fine in my eyes. Many champion passives are meant to help them more during the early game and less later and for that reason panths passive is right where it belongs. by the time you get into later team fights you should have some defensives.

There is one glaring and annoying thing about panth that I really think needs to change however and yes it is a nerf... His move speed for his kit is WAY to high. There are champs that are melee only that have slower movespeed than panth and yet he has 355 base MS with 3 ranged skills and one extremely high mobility ult. It makes no sense to me why his move speed is so high.
Shut up Col J


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Red Ryu

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Since this thread is still getting some life, and I haven't been on the forums in quite some time, I feel a lot more comfortable talking about this topic.

Do you guys still feel like Pantheon doesn't have a good niche/role within the scope of the game? What specifically do you think he fails at? And by the same token, what do you think is core to what makes Pantheon Pantheon?

Warning, I'm not actively working on a rework or anything of that nature involving him, but I saw this thread was still getting some activity and I haven't said hey in awhile, so I wanted to chat
I like him as an early game lane/bully assassin. That feels like what his role is, his niche is kinda hard to say. I wanna say global pressure or his ability to fight well in most 1v1s is his niche. Though I wonder how much that is a niche over what others have.

I don't like how hard and fast he falls off. Him falling off is a fair trade off for what he does, but his mana costs are too high I feel like for what he does compared to other champs.

His passive and his ult feel eh, the ult has too much cast time and compare it to TF and Shen, granted pantheons does damagd but still even with the damage the cast time is too long. That and the only putting 1 point in it til late game thing bugs me.

If I have a problem with him, it's his passive/mana costs/ult which just need QoL changes IMO.

The niche thing though, that is a valid thing I wanna think about.

Also I like the idea of him being able to crit with his spears before 30%, just not garenteed unless they are low.


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
is it possible to decrease the number of hits it takes to proc his passive as the game goes on? possibly to 2 or 3. It could be possible to have basic attacks against champions double the effectiveness past level 11. The problem is finding a way to get him better later on while not having him destroy lane.

Having less of a delay between when he finishes jumping and when he lands would be good, as I have found as well as seen everywhere that pantheon never gets a direct center hit with his ult, and only ever gets a hit at all on anyone beyond the one he stuns if they have absolutely zero mobility. Either having the delay decrease or the speed of the resounding wave increase would be really good, as pantheon is halfway through his combo by the time the wave hits (w and q finished at least).

That being said, Pantheon has some of the best scaling in the game (5.0*bonus ad,2.0*ap, and that's without his crit or a second spear), so the fact that he falls off late is absurd in my mind.


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Alcibion

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
1. That's because a properly built Pantheon (it includes Hydra, and Muramana used to be sensibly buildable before the nerf to Tear/Manamune caused by Kha'Zix and the 3 multiform champions) is a very strong duelist, but his lack of survivability and escapes (well, his ult can count but still) likely make him unable to dive 1v5. Yeah, if you W to the carry at the back of the enemy team you're going to get focused and killed fast—gosh, what a surprise!
His passive and general squishiness work way better with limited fights (1v1 and such) because it buys him time to build his passive, and by splitpushing he's less likely to have to deal with a mage (which would make his passive less useful in the late game). However, what does he have in fights?
Oh, yeah.
A 320 + 3.6 bonus AD physical damage AoE nuke on a 6s base cooldown.

That thing happens to have 600 range and easily surpass 800 damage (Hydra+LW+runes/masteries), which is kinda hard to ignore, even for armour-stacking though dudes like Renekton or Jarvan. You know, the ones who can actually dive 1v5 and won't hesitate to do it if they're on the opposing team. So what do you do?
You peel. You've got a stun, your passive helps you not melt too fast to them, and you've got a very high damage output if you get more than one rotation before dying. You stick to the dude who's going to get dived, you nuke the diver, you stun him to peel for your buddy, and once the big bad is dead, well... it reduces the total amount of people in the fight.
Which is swell, remember? Less people = less basic attacks while you stack your passive, less cc to stop your HSS, less burst to kill you as soon as you W in... so once you've put some enemies out of the way, you're suddenly much more free to go ham on the enemy team.

Yeah, I know. Kha'Zix, Zed, Ahri don't have to do that. Well Pantheon is an old design. He can't just mash in forehead on the keyboard and kill the enemy carry unless his 4 mates peeled for him. He has to adapt.
Y'know what? It's fine. Pantheon's role and strength evolve as the game progresses. And it's cool. It gives you more stuff to do, it rewards you for paying attention, it also opens different build paths (splitpushing, more penetration to peel, super happy dive time if your comp lets you get away with it, etc.)

No, really. As a Pantheon player, and as much as it's cool to bash people's noses with that shield and to shake a big "**** you" sign in that dude's face (where there's already a spear) after I point-blank Q'd him before he could finish me off, having the damage output to threaten anyone if I play it right, and being rewarded for good positioning in teamfights instead of being allowed to just dive in without much thought feels great. I do well? I can tell myself I earned it.


2. If you queue spells properly, Pantheon will already benefit from extended range on Q and W during his fall. It's not always the optimal play, mind you (you immediatly burn your cc/repositioning skill while generally appearing in the middle of enemies).
Having to lead them is fine: Mandrop does a huge amount of base damage for a fighter's spell, even with its magic nature taken into account, and it's partly because you're not assured to land it. If it was made easy, you'd just go "oh, well, I used my ult, he took 600 damage, no biggie". Currently, a spot-on ult is hard to pin, but it's quite a high to see your model drop on your target and yell "Yeah, here're my feet, with a 1k damage payload!".

Plus, you can also use it to zone, or catch people, precisely because of that delay. Sure they may escape, but the spell's so damn strong because of it. He's got the shortest cooldown of all global/semi-global/formerly-global ults (Soraka, TF, Shen, Karthus, Nocturne), there's a reason for that.
Mandrop is much more than a "I fall on top of them and immediatly burn W" button. It can't be summed up to a hard to land gap closer/nuke.

(It's also a hilerious way to deal with tower dives from low cc champions. Especially if you make them think you're running away when in fact you drop right back here.)


3. His passive is strong in lane, and strong in duels. It gets "botched" with AS, and generally with levels (abilities become stronger, and thus generally make a greater % of the champion's damage compared to basic attacks, so Panth's passive mitigates a comparatively lower % of damage).
The fact that it remains strong against AD-based champions not itemising AS makes it obviously better at splitpushing than teamfighting: less sources susceptible to break it, and due to the nature of champions sent to deal with splitpushers it's more likely to block meaningful attacks.
As time goes and champions' level, the ability burst from said champions also falls back down, becoming a lower % of their damage (compare Jarvan's level 2 or 6 burst to the drop in damage he experiments past 9 (when Q stops leveling, and innate/rune-based MR per level makes up for the levels he's going to put in E) or even past 13 (when he stops gaining base damage)), so they start relying on basic attacks again. With good kiting (to abuse his low Q and E cd) and cooldowns/W management, Pantheon is way tankier than in teamfights, especially if he gets lifesteal, to extend the fights and thus get more passive instances off.

He's got an enemy, though.
Minions.
Panth's passive seems to be hard-coded to trigger when a basic attack deals more than 40 damage to him (no idea when armour comes into play here), so melee and caster minions become able to pop it pretty fast, which can be quite annoying in these situations.


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Calibretto9

Senior Member

10-21-2013

When I first started playing about a year ago I was blown away by how cool I thought Pantheon's concept was, but in time moved away from him and haven't played him in ages. I think my biggest frustrations were trying to utilize his wonky ultimate and how hard he drops off in teamfights mid to late game.

I really enjoy his passive, and think all of his regular abilities are fun. The problem is by mid to late game you basically have to skirt the edges because your opponents can defend against your damage and you're so darn squishy. It's a tough balancing act because if he's too tough he'll just dive in and melt everyone, but I think the problem is that he's squishy, he falls of AND his ultimate does little to help either issue.

Dropping the cast time by a fair amount from his ultimate would help (making it feel more responsive and giving him a bit of an escape) and taking a look at at least allowing him to survive for a short time while in fights as opposed to getting blown over.


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The Wonder Chef

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Junior Member

10-21-2013

I don't play much Pantheon, so I could be way off, but I feel like his main problem is that he simply does not scale past level 12. That isn't just his peak, he gains almost 0 power after that point. Q and E both scale on bonus AD, so his AD/level doesn't help at all. W gains 25 (wtf?) single-target magic damage per rank and 1 second lower cooldown, making it one of the worst skills in the game to put a second point into. R gets a 15 second lower cooldown and a bunch of damage that rarely lands anyway. Some thoughts:

  • Like everyone else says, W could do with an armor ratio and maybe a little better rank scaling
  • This is a kind of a huge change, but I think his passive should come up on 5/4/3 attacks/spells. It just feels too dominant in some lane matchups, but it goes largely unnoticed in teamfights when there might be 2-3 people attacking you. The change might make him impossible to duel late game, but it would be much appreciated on assassin builds.
  • The certain death passive is just awkward, being on E but only affecting Q. I imagine the reasoning is to keep him from getting first blood before level 2 in every mid matchup, but it doesn't make much sense. This is a pretty big change too, but what if every ability had a bonus effect at under 15% health? Say Q lost its crit damage, but refunded half the mana cost, W gained 50% stun duration, and E kept the aa passive and gained the crit damage for itself. All in all, it would help waveclear and reduce the penalty for farming with Q. You lose the execute potential on Q, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that you should have to get in close for your guaranteed finisher.
  • Heartseeker Strike could also possibly use a change to total AD scaling if it wouldn't hurt the early damage too much.


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
I'm not sure most of these are problems, being strong in lane and a not very good teamfighter I think is fine. I do agree that his ult could use some tuning since it often feels like a worse version of TF ult BUT in a best case scenario if he gets a bunch of people in the middle of it it's strictly better.


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Breakstar

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10-21-2013

Here's how I view the problem.

Pantheon's a champion who thrives in laning. He has solid harassment with enough range that he's not helpless to ranged champions (like Garen/Udyr can be), but not oppressive range. His all-ins are enough of a commitment for a jungler to take advantage of, his ults have a long tell but are still quite useful for roaming and ganking.

But while most champions have some kind of ability that helps them scale into teamfights, Pantheon doesn't. Most champions scale to teamfights either by having AoEs - like Riven, or Ahri - or who gain defenses in teamfights, like Evelynn or Xin Zhao. Pantheon's only teamfight scaling is the small AoE in his E, and the usually-unreliable AoE on his ult. Furthermore, his passive scales exclusively with abilities he uses, meaning it's no stronger in teamfights than it is in a one-on-one situation (compared to Maokai, for instance).

The lack of teamfight scaling results in Pantheon becoming a niche pick rarely effective in teamfights and therefore rarely effective in lategame.