Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Gentleman Thief

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Can you explain more what you mean with passive health increase? Are you referring to the crit proc from HSS? Or something about his passive which blocks autos?
I'm pretty sure he means the HP percentage at which his E passive procs.


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CragBlade

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minjo Master View Post
I feel like if Pantheon's going to be a good champion his spears should be nerfed or changed in some way. It's really dumb how you just have to outsustain his mana pool with pots and if you do you win and if you don't you pretty much can't.
Its funny because his spears aren't the thing that does the most damage on his kit. If he Es you it usually means you are dead.


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CragBlade

Senior Member

10-21-2013

What if you made Pantheon deal missing health damage instead of the "insta-crit" mechanic? This would allow him to build tankier if you coupled this change with a damage reduction mechanic if you uses his W or uses his shield passive.


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blindworld

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Junior Member

10-21-2013

For his ultimate, the cast length seems to be directly related to the length of time it takes for another player to walk out of range. Keeping that intact, what if you gave him a 25% or so cast time reduction and a 25% reduction to the ultimate's radius. Enemies can still get out, but it requires quicker reflexes to get out of range of his other abilities too. This seems similar to increasing ability range after an ultimate, but I think it would play better. Of course the 25% could be tweaked in either direction.


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P2Mc28

Member

10-21-2013

Thought about Panth's ult;

What if the damage was dealt like Darius' spin? Higher along the edges vs. the center, so you can either all rush to the middle to avoid the big damage (but then need to face Panth), or sprint outside if you think you can make it, but risk taking a bigger hit.

I mentally picture the reasoning for the primary damage on the edges to be along the lines of J4's ult.


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SkinnerBlade

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Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfire666 View Post
apparently not.. Why are you complaining on one of the best initiators in the game. And you only have to spend 1 point to get the max effect. The rest of the point are put to making panth even stronger before he hits the point where he has no choice but to put points in his ult.

Leave him alone. He's at the ahri point where he is not op nor up. He's just fine.
ಠ_ಠ


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
My problems with pantheon fall into 3 main camps.

1: He is very, very squishy, talon or kha levels if you want to be damage, and pitifully weak if you build him tanky. This isn't in an of itself a problem, but it certainly lowers his effect late game, due to the more explosive nature of teamfights.

2: His ult is a joke to land, and even when you do, his combo does not flow nicely. The enemy is given horrendous amounts of warning, ~3.5 seconds or so before the mandrop, plenty of time to walk out unless you have an ally already CCing them. Tf only has to wait what, 2 seconds, and the indicator is much smaller. This massive delay makes hitting people with it stupidly hard, and the skill better to fire behind them to stop retreat. In addition, if his W's range was increased to say radius of ult + 150 while falling and for 0.75s after, then the "enemy moved out of ult, I am useless" does not apply, and you can still get to who you intended to drop onto.

3: As a toplane pick, you often give up the tough, middle of the fight, fight starting bruiser or tank that most teams take, leaving your team lacking initiation. While ulting onto the enemy team would be a perfect method of doing so, the fact pantheon is squishy and his ult hard to make hit leave this reliable.

As a little side note, toplane pantheon is so mana hungry, you can't actually play him. Mana pots feel like a drain and do not have the feel good impact hp pots do.

All in all, I cannot take pantheon toplane in good conscience any more. I play him mid, against pretty much anything, as I can out roam and outfight assassins, out bully and trade mages, and force massive plays in bottom lane.


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SkinnerBlade

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10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Tier Panth View Post
Hey guys can I put in my two cents? Being one of few high elo Pantheon Mains I would suggest not giving him ad Scaling on his W and not changing his ultimate to give passive stats. Right now he does his job exceedingly well because he has a balanced kit. He already had 2 high damage skills that make him a tough matchup in lane for anyone really. He does have a few counters in lane but honestly this doesnt stop me from playing Pantheon into Malph/Cho/Yorick etc. The thing you can count on with Pantheon is that when he hits 6 he will ward river, push his lane to tower and go back to buy. After that he will ult mid or bot for a kill and secure dragon. He should be built as an assassin because that is his job. His ultimate is extremely good at making team fighting against him scary. If you engage before he skyfalls you will Scatter like ants when he has a well placed ult after the fight breaks out forcing you to either re position or die. If he lands on adc/ap carry in a team fight you will most definitely win the fight.

This is why you build BT, LW and GA. You go in, kill the carry and sacrifice yourself for that carry. This is what I do when playing Panth.

Tell your team to group mid
Push a sidelane and draw someone top to stop you.
At this time your team should be pressuring a tower
As you see your team in a good spot to fight a 4v4 tell them you're gonna ult mid for a 4v5 (easy win)
Place your ult slightly behind their team, watch them choose between running towards your team (out of your ult) or towards your ult (1000dmg plus your combo on the carry = instant death)
Proceed to win the 4v5, push the tower and secure objectives.

His job is well defined and he is great at it. Do not change anything about him except his model please.
Oh dear Jesus, don't listen to this guy, please


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

10-21-2013

In all honesty panth is in a pretty good place right now. Yeah if you go all out assassin you are demolished pretty quickly but never have I considered Mantheon an assassin. His kit simply doesnt read that way. Mantheon is a MAN, He gets in those fights and takes hit and dishes them out like a MAN... not run in hit someone and run away like a coward!

As I said there are not to many issues in my mind with panth. Is his ult really more for catching people running away or out of position? yeah it kind of is, i'm not thrilled with that though. I do think his ult needs to be worked on and I think reducing its diameter or cast range in exchange for quicker cast time and drop would be a fair trade off.

His passive is fine in my eyes. Many champion passives are meant to help them more during the early game and less later and for that reason panths passive is right where it belongs. by the time you get into later team fights you should have some defensives.

There is one glaring and annoying thing about panth that I really think needs to change however and yes it is a nerf... His move speed for his kit is WAY to high. There are champs that are melee only that have slower movespeed than panth and yet he has 355 base MS with 2 ranged skills, a gap closer, and one extremely high mobility ult. It makes no sense to me why his move speed is so high.


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Theras Arkna

Senior Member

10-21-2013

The lack of disengage. Not being able to leave a fight after assassination is a critical flaw. Allowing W to be cast on allied minions would be a great tweak.