Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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CragBlade

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Some ideas:

1. If Pantheon blocks a shot the champion who just got blocked deals less damage to Pantheon. Additionally, Pantheon's passive blocks all on-hit effects.

2. After Pantheon uses W on someone he gets damage reduction for a few seconds.

3. Killing a unit with a spear refunds mana.

4. His E tooltip is reworded to actually show Champion damage first instead of Minion damage, and it now deals full damage to Monsters so Jungle Pantheon can actually be more viable.

5. I think you should lower Pantheon's ult range to Nocturne levels but make it an AoE ground slam initiation that stuns, slows or fears. Something super manly and scary.

6. His Spears can now apply on-hit effects.

7. The Crit passive is now on his Q instead of on his E. His E cannot apply it so I never understood why it was on that ability.

8. When you can crit your opponent with an autoattack or spear there should be an icon above their heads for both the Pantheon player and the low health guy. It only seems fair.


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Falling Objects

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
<Snip>
Reduce cooldown on his W by <ARBITRARY NUMBER HERE> seconds every time he auto attacks an enemy champion or gets a kill/assist?

You shouldn't be able to duel Pantheon. Bruisers can just outright trashcan him since they'll have 250-300 armor and better sustained damage. All the common carries can kite and slowly whittle him down.

This will also open the doors to more interesting duelist/counter-duelist builds with his passive actually coming into play with attack speed builds.


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RiotFpMcgee

Associate QA Strategist

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10-21-2013
8 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS1c0576ec0ecef2 View Post
snip
Can you explain more what you mean with passive health increase? Are you referring to the crit proc from HSS? Or something about his passive which blocks autos?


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Nuclear Dragon

Senior Member

10-21-2013

While I personally do not play Pantheon, my friends do. It seems to be a consistent complaint from what I hear, see, and read that he falls off HARD in team-fights. Even an extremely fed Pantheon can fail to carry a game simply because he still gets blown up. IF he decides to build health, he doesn't do enough. It's either end the game FAST or fall behind.

He is a very powerful duelist when ahead, but his aegis does VERY little to protect him in a team-fight. What separates Pantheon from other assassins is that he has NO escape mechanism and a barely existent defense. Some possible solutions include a way to viably itemize defense, better inherent defense (including possible change to Aegis Protection), or to give him a better secondary fighting range. When I say "better secondary fighting range," I'm thinking along the lines of Nidalee where she hovers at range until she decides it's time to go balls deep. Maybe if Pantheon's E had more range naturally but if used as a follow-up to W it would have shorter range and more damage it could work. See, on live his only option is to go in and FIGHT with NO defense. It's feast or famine, and if there's too many people (aka team-fight) it's automatically famine because he has no cooldown resets to keep going or defense to keep himself safe and no retreat mechanism because Spartan's never retreat!

I suggest moving some of the power budget from his ultimate to help his late game team-fight engagements or pre-team-fight poke a bit.


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sarcasmsmurf

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
Hi,
thanks for the discussion.. some opinions

1. i love his passive if anything i think it is very very strong .. you can effectively ignore two turret shots and kill someone under tower at lvl 3.. i would not change it ne bit .. yes i agree it does not seem to be a big factor in team fights but.. not everything has to have a role at every point in a game.. the passive allows for lane dominance and tower diving and ganking opportunities..

2. his Ultimate needs something... i think TF Ult is a good comparison here i would not mind if the damage was vastly reduced or even removed to reduce its cast time or to move some power into his W .. or a bit of both... but then do you just end up with an AD TF? and one that can dominate lane ... probably not a good thing

another option for ultimate... completely get rid off the global aspect from it.. make it a AOE Ground smash that damages, slows and stuns people in the center ... something akin to the other taragonnians (ay ay)... so i am thinking panth jumps up and lands in the middle of a team to initiate... then can fight everyone 1v5 until his team follows him in because he is a man!!


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IS1c0576ec0ecef2

Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Can you explain more what you mean with passive health increase? Are you referring to the crit proc from HSS? Or something about his passive which blocks autos?

His Certain Death Passive.

Passive: Pantheon's autoattacks and Spear Shots gain 100% critical strike chance against targets below 15% of their max health.

which would be

Passive: Pantheon's autoattacks and Spear Shots gain 100% critical strike chance against targets below 15%/17.5%/20%/22.5%/25% of their max health.

as it's leveled.


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Icraig33

Senior Member

10-21-2013

I was wondering, What if his Innate granted him a small percentage-based increase to armor (or both armor/MR) while it's up? That could maybe make building defensive items feel better, make abilities that hit him less of a pain and there would be good counterplay to it. Of course, maybe that would be too easily countered, but at the same time Panth can keep up his passive for a pretty long time.


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Wyl

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
So aggregating responses:

1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.
2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.
3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

________________________________

1. His damage output is pretty darn high against squishy targets, and every time he has 400g at fountain and an open item slot, he can powerspike, because almost all of his item paths involve long swords. In terms of raw single target decimation capability, he falls off late game once team fights start happening (he hates peel) but at least in my experience, he can provide comparable map pressure to Shen with his semi-global ultimate. I personally feel these are reasonable trade-offs for the squishiness.

2. His ultimate could use some intuitiveness changes, because the optimal use case is rarely to jump ON someone, but to generally jump in their escape path due to it's cast time. I'm not sure how I would resolve this, but I agree with the frustration point. Maybe if the range of W extended for .5 sec after usinghis jump?

3. At least in my opinion, his passive feels awesome in lane, but come midgame teamfights, it's hard for it to feel impactful. Again, dunno, what we could do to it though to make it feel better.

What are your guys thoughts?
1. He's too squishy when building assassin, and he has no escapes.

While this isn't far, it doesn't narrow down the real problem. First of, he's not really an Assassin, no matter how you build him. Light AD Caster would be more fair. The problem here is that he's not as rewarded to build offensively as, say, Riven. Riven has multiple repositioning tools, and a shield that scales with AD, and more CC on top of it. I remember when Pantheon used to 100-10 people with his E only when he built very offensively (that's back far away in end of Season 1/Season 2), that felt great to build offensively even if you would die right after (it might have been too strong for sure but that's not the point), but the problem wasn't even that he dealt so much damage, the problem laid in the fact that he had so much presence in the early to mid game. That's his identity, a huge pain in the ass for the whole laning phase, bringing it to mid game then falling off because everyone is grouping, he can still have shiny moments though.

I mean sure, if you compare him to the top picks like Renek, Jax, Shen, etc. He doesn't stand as strong (assuming you play him top, otherwise Ahri, Zed, Fizz, etc) as them, but maybe the problem lays elsewhere than in Pantheon.

2. His ultimate is hard to land and has a too long of a cast time.

Personally, I think the problem ISN'T that it is too long to channel, the problem is that it takes too much time to land (descent), unless it's very early in the game, pretty much everyone can juke it, or even just run straight and be away with it. Sure, it's up to your allies to help him set up, but I feel he needs a bit more autonomy there.

3. His passive doesn't feel very meaningful.

That's actually false, knowing that you can triple your passive (charge 3 stacks, attack after it wears off, have 2nd one, it wears off, then W someone), you can actually tank a whole 3 turret shots. That's the reason why support Pantheon was a thing in China/Korea for a while, it just was so easy to dive someone with that kind of strength. My take here would be MAYBE to increase the number of stacks required but make it so Autoattacks -on champions- will count for 2 stacks. Not only might it bring some more diversity in his kit, but it will also add complexity to his whole combo and it will be worth to Autoattack someone.



Overall, I feel you might NEED to tune down his early game potential to increase his mid to late game a tad, but I still believe that it is his identity.


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Minjo Master

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

I feel like if Pantheon's going to be a good champion his spears should be nerfed or changed in some way. It's really dumb how you just have to outsustain his mana pool with pots and if you do you win and if you don't you pretty much can't.


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Kladdius

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Don't mind me, just a confused player walking through the forums, nothing to see here...