Morello, A Moment of Your Time Please for Pantheon

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Zukuu1

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Back from the movie!

1. Pacific Rim is awesome. Go see it.

2. I feel like many players undervalue Pantheon's ultimate. "It's more guesswork than skill." That's maybe true if you aren't a good Pantheon, but good jumps are every bit as good at winning games as good TF ultimates.

Maybe my itemization is wonky, but I tend to rush Hydra these days versus a wide variety of matchups. It may not make me tanky, but auto-attack based sustain + wave clear, extra burst vs an ADC, lifesteal + hp regen + a lot of AD is monstrous, and the build path is incredibly easy.

Others have noted that Pantheon's manapool is very constraining. That may be true, but mana pots are cost effective, and quite useful until level 9 or so at which point your base mana pool is sufficient. I also run mana regen blues/yellow depending upon whether i'm against an AP heavy or AD heavy team, so perhaps runes are the answer there.

I think a big philosophical difference I have is that I don't build pantheon to win lane, I build him to win the game. Each game, that's generally different. Lane matchups are great and all, but unless it's over in 20 minutes, the teamfight phase is going to have a bigger impact, and if my job is to kill an ADC, Hydra + Cleaver + LW tends to be what I need. It may not make a real dent in Malphite or Shen, but does it need to if I can kill Varus at the onset of the fight?

I don't claim to be the best Pantheon (The guy i modeled my play after was LoCicero, not sure if he still plays tbh) but he's one of my highest win rate champs at Plat I, so I feel pretty comfortable discussing him.

I'm not in a position to make changes to him, but I'm not really sure changes need to be made. The biggest one that I'd appreciate would be changing his AP ratio on his W to an armor ratio (think Rammus/Malphite) to give make building offtank feel better. A bit faster action on his ultimate would be nice too, but even slight buffs would make him extremely frustrating to play against, as he snowballs incredibly hard as it is, so I'm sure live design would take it really slow with him (I'm not sure he's being looked at for any changes just saying it would be a very tentative process if he was).
Anything that you can't land consistently and is only partially in your hand = guesswork. How GOOD you are at guessing is a different thing and can be considered "skilled", but that doesn't change the fact that you can only make it land so much, due to the high channel time and red-circle foretelling. TF's ulti is vastly easier to make use off in a more meaningful way. You don't even need to end up "using" it and it's useful due to the vision alone already.

I don't think Pantheons ulti needs to undergo a change in its actual effect tho (although I never got why it slows - seems pretty pointless), tweaking it however may be a indeed a good thing. Reduction in channel time sounds pleasing.
(My dream change would be that he becomes immune to damage (not CC) while channeling. This way you can use it as very high cd, costly disengage, if used in consideration of their CC or force reposition. Dunno how to make it balanced with the abort potion tho. It would actually be just enough to make him immune to damage once he jumps... I died so often mid air).

And obviously you build for the team, but that's exactly the problem here:
Quote:
my job is to kill an ADC
That tends to be impossible more often than not. Peeling / CCing Pantheon off is incredible easy, just as easy as to just bursting him down, even if built as off-tank. The line of his intended role blurs here a little bit. Assassin or Bruiser? He is neither Zed nor Vi much.

I like the defense scaling idea. Makes much sense for his itemization. Would also emphasize a bit his bruiser role. HP scaling would be an even more neutral way (since you aren't force to buy armor over mr). HP helps against both kinds of damage.

Just have a friendly chat with Morello and see if a tweak or two could be tested on PBE soonish - if it's too unbalanced, you can just leave it alone again. And tell Soulcrushed to get to work onto Viktor please... It's been 2 month since his last answer, and the thread to tweak his augment has anniversary soon... :X


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BeyondGodlike

Senior Member

07-20-2013

just revert the delay nerf on his ult and all will be forgiven

its just unfortunate that ad items like dorans blade and spirit of the lizard elder had to get nerfed because of adcs building them it really changed the way i played him in the jung

in mid panth is really strong however, just underrated


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Battletick

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
The biggest frustration point to me though is the lag between cast time and landing.

I'm off to watch Pacific Rim, but i'll check back on this thread when i get home, have a good one all!
Was it just me who thought he was trying to say that between the cast time and landing of Pantheon's ult he was going to watch a movie at first?


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Ivalyr

Senior Member

07-20-2013

I'm actually afraid of seeing pantheon worked on. I really like his playstyle as it is, and I think he's just extremely undervalued. He's an amazing mid laner and I really enjoy him as a jungler because of his gap closing stun and his high early damage output. People seem to think he's a bad jungler, but his clearspeed isn't too shabby, and once you pick up a vamp scepter your sustain is decent too. I haven't really played many of the champs that have seen reworks lately, but I haven't cared much for the newly reworked versions of the champions over the old versions. I'd hate to see Pantheon changed to not feel like Pantheon anymore (Veigar too, since I know he's on the chopping block).


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FlutterShen

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Okay, some I'll drop this HERE since the gods are watching this thread.

PLEASE, allow pantheon to adjust his ults aim.

For instance, he ults, and jumps into the air. As he's in the air, (When the big green circle is growing) allowing him to cast his ult again and instead land anywhere within the circle, rather than smackdab in the middle. That would then become the 'middle' of his ult.


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Ivalyr

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlutterShen View Post
Okay, some I'll drop this HERE since the gods are watching this thread.

PLEASE, allow pantheon to adjust his ults aim.

For instance, he ults, and jumps into the air. As he's in the air, (When the big green circle is growing) allowing him to cast his ult again and instead land anywhere within the circle, rather than smackdab in the middle. That would then become the 'middle' of his ult.
That would be a bit too good, then. Plus it takes out all of the satisfaction of leading with your ult. That's part of what makes a good Pantheon player good; knowing how to estimate where the enemy will be by the time the ult actually drops.


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newpillows

Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotFpMcgee View Post
Disclaimer 1: I'm responding not as a designer, but as a player and Pantheon enthusiast (pla I, 110 games with pantheon, 60% win rate).

Disclaimer 2: I haven't had time to check out the thread prior to this post outside of the thread start, so i've likely missed many things.

In my experience, Pantheon occupies a similar space to an AD Twisted Fate. The primary differences are his lane dominance, trading poke for all-in gameplay, and the PERCEPTION that he falls off as the game continues.

I'll address the three of these in order:

Lane dominance: Outside of 4 matchups (Cho'Gath, Malphite, Renekton, Ryze), it's hard for me to think of a non-favorable one, and those can still be reasonable if Pantheon focuses on ganking mid/bot rather than winning his own lane. Worst case scenario, Pantheon actually performs quite well in the jungle due to his ability to gank 2 lanes at virtually the same time, and no one calls MIA if you weren't in lane to begin with. Careful usage of your passive, the ability to buy a critical item at 400 gold on every back (Mantheon craves long swords) allows you to shut down many popular laners.

All in vs Poke. A well placed ultimate can land you on a high priority target, forcing their escape. You then have flash, as well as your W to gap close. A pantheon built full assassin can generally full > 0 a makrsman and some mages (trying those out!) with a full combo. You trade this for negligible poke outside of laning phase.

Fall off. A good support can make your job extremely difficult as pantheon. Any sort of peel can really ruin your day. That said, your damage output with E is actually on the very high end of the ad caster/assassin spectrum. Coupled with black cleaver, your armor pen is very high.

Pantheon also performs pretty well in extended fights, as his full combo has an effective cooldown of ~ 8 seconds or so, much faster than many mages.

Speaking to your specific ideas OP, maybe adding an armor ratio on W would make tanky itemization feel better (ie. cleaver > bulwark + Sunfire etc.).

I disagree about the ultimate, as that cooldown is huge in the early game, at least in my experience. The biggest frustration point to me though is the lag between cast time and landing.

I'm off to watch Pacific Rim, but i'll check back on this thread when i get home, have a good one all!

Even the reds don't know about bulwark's removal!!!!!!! LoL


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Plague of Gripes

Senior Member

07-20-2013

I remember buying Panth after a free week. I was impressed with him. I don't particularly care for Pantheon, now, though, for a few reasons:


  • High reliance on mana pots. Nearly mandatory. Mana destroys him, and there's no system for him to make any of it back. Yet he needs to use it consistently, as his spear is his cheapest poke, but it still costs 45 mana on a champion that doesn't get much of it to work with.
  • Very simplistic play. Probably don't need to get into this, but Pantheon's range of abilities are limited. A jump stun, a ranged attack, and a fan attack. Jump on someone, Q+E. That's about it. Q first if you're feeling confident so you can get off a second Q, maybe.
  • His ult. Obviously unusable in a fight, for the most part. It's not a global like TF, and its range is actually pretty short, all things considered. I can somewhat reliably land it, although almost never against experienced players. It's just too easy to dodge once you see the warning. Teammates also have the tendency to push enemies away from it if they see you coming, since a lot of people have no sense and think it means "ATTACK." It's effectively just a crummy teleport. Which given how simplistic the rest of Panth's kit is, makes him that much more boring to play.
  • W scales off AP. ...What? His ult does too. I don't pretend to understand either of these. Normally when AD champs have an AP skill it's mainly to lock its damage in place. Although his damage on both is low enough that I don't think it's warranted. It gives me the impression that it's because he has an older kit, when you bothered to humor the idea that you could... run Pantheon AP...? No clue. Either way, really limits his builds.
  • Squishy. Considering the prior complaints about his skills, if you try to dump AS into Panth and he's not fed, he's just going to blow up. So Panth ends up playing very, very poke heavy with his Q, or just as a suicide assassin. Very boring and dissatisfying. His passive mitigates this in lane to some extent, but in team fights, pfft. Forget it.

But I'm no expert. These are the entry mechanics that make me dread the idea of playing Pantheon, though. To summarize: boring, simplistic, risky, unsatisfying.


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TheDjinni

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnes View Post
My apologies, but this is not the case at all. Pantheon suffers from dated design (back before AD ratios were common) and his "reworks" over the years have been primarily focused upon adjusting his Heartseeker Strike (it being either way too strong or completely useless). I think it's about time that his other abilities were brought up to par as well so that he isn't so heavily outclassed relative to the likes of Kha'Zix or Renekton.
Him not being viable is a temporary thing. He's weak vs disengage comps and the current fotm toplaners. Renekton literally hardcounters his kit, that's not going to change any time soon. And Pantheon can beat Kha'Zix in lane quite easily and snowball.

His midgame strengths, that of being able to snowball other lanes and cleanup teamfights, plus his lategame strengths of being able to assassinate squishies, only really gets countered by a strong disengage.

I've been playing him a lot lately and the only thing holding him back is his lane opponent. Buffing Pantheon isn't necessary; the problem is the fotm champs need to be nerfed. His teamfighting depends on the mobility of the enemy team and your ability to aim your ult; if they disengage and you miss your ult you're worthless, but other than that he's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nocturnes View Post
Grand Skyfall:
- Right now, there are no incentives to level this ability past its first rank until Spear Shot and Heartseeker Strike are maxed (distance doesn't change, mana cost doesn't change, the damage isn't the primary focus of the ability, and a fifteen second reduction in cooldown is arguably trivial)
His ultimate does not need a change and should absolutely be leveled at 11 and 16 for the cooldown and damage. You know that champs on the edge of the ultimate take at minimum half damage, right? Each level is a free +150 base magic damage burst minimum. That alone is worth it since if you're good at aiming it it's guaranteed damage. Few champions get more than 150 damage per level on their ult, Panth gets 150-300 plus it's a massive AoE.

Anyone who says they can't get damage off of the ultimate simply does not know how to use the ultimate. You need to predict their movements and aim it such that they're standing in the center of the ultimate when it shows up on their screen. Once that happens the only thing that saves them is flash; if that's down they're eating your full burst plus half your ultimate at least, since they can't clear the ultimate radius in time once they can see it.

Reworking pantheon or buffing him in any way is just going to lead to nerfs down the road when the kennen jayce elise fixes come in and disengage comps take a hit.


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Chocoßo

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed Panth needs work, though likely after worlds. I might do a thread when we're ready to get some work done here and get thoughts.
can you look into making each stab from his e cost a portion of the mana cost? instead of taking the full mana cost if you get interrupted, i had this idea because i've been building manamune recently and i haven't gotten it charged to muramana yet in plenty of games so far