A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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ZeroAgainst

Senior Member

07-17-2013

this seems more like a nerf then a buff to me . (kha zix why u no get this treatment)


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Barrett712

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Junior Member

07-17-2013

Just my two cents here,

there was a post here about getting rid of the stealth from Rengar's Ult that I found pretty interesting and wish to expand. Sure some people will say that Rengar is, thematically, the Predator from the movies and, because of that, must have his stealth but he is also a "predator" like a jungle cat, and I think we can make his ult Reflect that by:
-getting rid of the stealth
-increasing his Movement Speed but a large amount (maybe do an animation of Rengar going on all fours)
-increasing the pounce range just for the ult
-maybe bestowing tenacity or a slow-reducing buff for the duration of the Ult.

And, to tackle the Triple-Q problem, we could replace the ferocity bonus with "ultimate" versions of his standard abilities that Rengar can use one of during his ult that DOES use the cooldowns of his abilities, unlike the ferocity-enchanted abilities that do not affect his cooldowns. (This is just for the ult alone, The ferocity system should still remain outside his ult)

Savagery-Ult: Most people, when attacking squishies, usually use Ferocity-Q and regular Q in quick succession after pouncing. since the process takes around half a second to execute anyway, we can just put similar power to a single strike instead of having to press Q twice.

Battle Roar-Ult: Its a roar that bolsters his defense, which never really made much sense to me. Sure you can say that the battle cry can inspire himself, but i was led to believe that roars are used to intimidate or frighten the opposition. because of this, maybe we can do something like Hecarim's Ult that causes enemy champions to run away from Rengar. while it's mostly a defensive ability, Rengar could run past an enemy and use the roar to make them run at the opposite direction.

Bola Strike-Ult: This one i was having the most trouble thinking of an "ultimate" version. The best i could think of was having Rengar pounce at the enemy instead of throwing the bola, Tie him up, then dragging the victim away somewhere. But in all honesty, i wouldnt know how to balance that ability if it were to do that.

...

*Drops two cents on the floor and walks away*


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zerg2718

Senior Member

07-17-2013

But I love triple q's...


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-17-2013

Hes played 10 ranked games with Rengar, 36 with Kha Zix...I just found out his true plan.


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Haelix

Junior Member

07-17-2013

I know there's a lot of feedback against the Ult providing notification to potential prey. But I had an idea last night while thinking about the problems with his ult. (Apologies if this idea was already presented, I don't have time to read 90+ pages at work.)

If you want to keep the icon around, I propose the following:
1. Have the notification icon stay up the full duration of Rengar's Ult duration, even if stealth is cancelled.
2. Have the ability to Hit R while stealthed to cancel the Ult.
3. If the stealth is cancelled or timesout, have a reduced CD on the ult, if so, some or all ferocity is lost.

This means that if Rengar decides not to leap, due to people reacting to the icon, he's not lost his opportunity to hunt for long. It would create the ability for Rengar to put pressure on people without having to commit. It fits thematically, and the notification can scare prey, even if he's not a threat yet.

I feel like this gives Rengar the option to use his Ult as an intimidation/pressure tool. The loss of ferocity is just to prevent abuse cases with stacking free ferocity, (And kind of fits if he wussies out on a hunt. )

From the prey's perspective, they also have to risk continuing on their course of action, or falling back.

The primary cases where Rengar currently uses his ult:
1. In lane to deceive a lane opponent(prey) hopefully setting up for the kill.
2. From the jungle to gank a lane.
3. To chase down some scattered fleeing prey.
4. In a team fight to get on top of a squishy damage dealer and destroy them.
5. Escape a sticky situation. (Usually a split push, or sometimes a team fight, where he manages to use his passive to get in.)

How the notification and reduced CD affect each situation:

1. This is primarily for top Rengars, and is probably the worst case for adding a notification to his Ult. A notification pretty much nullifies the ability to do this. As soon as you pop the ult, the lane prey will drop back. It is only slightly mitigated by having reduced CD, in that you scare the prey off of your minions, and they lose some CS. You can even pop your ult, to scare the prey away while simultaneously Bing and have your CD by the time you get back to lane.

2. In this case, Rengar has a reduced ability to pop out of nowhere, but gains the additional tool of providing pressure if he's in the area, but not planning on ganking. He can pop his ult, and turn it off again (the icon staying up and providing pressure), and then he can work on a jungle camp. The prey won't know whether he's still lurking in the area, or whether he's not a threat.

3. This case is mostly unchanged, as the fleeing prey is already aware they are in danger, and is falling back. Once again if Rengar pops his ult and turns it off, they will probably flee much longer and waste more time. So Rengar has to make the choice of gauging whether to pursue with increased move speed or whether to just intimidate.

4. Rengar is still invisible, and in late game team fights teams have to assume he's probably around anyway. As well, Oracles and pink wards can be more prevalent, so the notification isn't as big a deal.

5. No change. The notification doesn't give anything away that the prey already knew, which is that Rengar is in the area.

I'd be interested to hear what people think!


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Troy242621

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Riot, please just make sure he is still an assassin. I'd REALLY like for Rengar to be a burst assassin jungler, but at least let him stay an assassin. If he's not able to kill EXTREMELY quickly, he's just not Rengar anymore,...


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SeigneurLemieux

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I play Rengar very often. He's my 2nd favourite champion. I am certain I will appreciate however you change his playstyle.

As such, I don't mind and welcome changes on him and so far ideas are good. It is easy to twist his kit, playstyle, Q/W/E and Bonetooth Necklace (Remove triple Q and buff him elsewhere seriously).

But, Scarizard, be careful with his ult. When I saw your first post saying "we plan on letting people hear the VO if they are within his sight range" and/or "if you heard him/if you saw him ult, you'll have an indicator over your head if he's close, etc", I was relieved. This would add a nice feeling to him and would allow you to buff the ult elsewhere.

Quote:
What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?
[...]
One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.
Those two iterations look problematic to me though.

1. First iteration, like Nocturne: Nocturne once he ults can gap-close at an incredibly-big distance, when he ults he's likely going to be there withing ~1 second. This isn't the case with Rengar and is why this idea would end up hurting his ganks alot imo.

You'll hear Grrrr....Fooooocusssss.... and you'll have time to run to safety unless he's already withing jump-range.

2. Second iteration: This seems even worst because you'll know Rengar is going for you at bottom lane or mid, and you'll have a few precious seconds to run unless he's very close. This means Rengar wouldn't be able to use his ults to cover large distance, but would have to use it when he's at ~1000 range if he doesn't want to give people some free time to run.
----------------------------------------------


TL;DR Basically, what I'm saying is, if you nerf the stealth aspect of his ult, make sure you do it in a way that doesn't force Rengar to use his ultimate in a his-ult-is-only-useful-if-you-cast-it-in-X-way, at-X-range-or-they'll-know-and-run-to-tower for example.

There needs to be a degree of "Wtf, am I being hunted?!?" to Rengar's ult, but a "guys, he ulted, RUN!" feeling would hurt Rengar's essence too much and should be avoided IMO.

"Paranoia + uncertainty > obvious fear" in this regard


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HiveCommander

Senior Member

07-17-2013

When someone goes deer hunting, they take aim and try to take down their prey (preferably with the first shot) as quickly as possible. A hunter does not space out his shots over several seconds to give the deer a chance to escape. If that deer escapes, all the hunter has achieved is wasting ammo and alerting other nearby wildlife to his presence, so he has to leave and find another hunting ground.

A hunter wants to either cripple or kill the target on the first shot. If you remove Rengar's ability to burst carries, it should be replaced with a huge debuff on the prey, like an AS/AD debuff, to represent him crippling them (seeing as you're taking away his ability to effectively and quickly kill)

As I seen someone post earlier, if Rengar's damage is spaced out over 5-6 seconds, he will never be able to kill an ADC on his own. That ADC can just right click on Rengar and lifesteal will keep him alive until Rengar dies.


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phyz1x

Junior Member

07-17-2013

what if u made his ult a pulsating detection rather than permanently able to see someone
and the rate of the scans can increase per level
(people further away will get less detected per second and people next to rengar would be easier targets)
during being undetected rengar cannot jump on them so therefore the rengar would have to time it to the pulse
this allows both buffs and counterplays to the ult
thus you can buff the movement speed/ duration
and the counterplays would be jukes and random movement from champions far away and pinks in lane


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Griiffy

Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastamon Ganja View Post
Scarizard how many games have you played with Rengar? How many ranked games? how many normal games?

I did a quick lolking and elophant search and lolking says you've played 10 ranked games while elophant says you've played 12 Ranked games with Rengar.

Sources:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/3...2#ranked-stats

http://direct.elophant.com/league-of-legends/summoner/na/34196252/ranked-champions

Why are you reworking rengar? Are you passionate about Rengar? Is he near and dear to your heart like he is to most people following this thread? Is he one of your favorite champs? What do you like about him?

Shouldn't someone who knows rengar, his abilities and game mechanics like the back of his hand and someone who is passionate and loves Rengar be in charge of the rework?

But i know Scarizard won't replay to this post because it is negative and criticizes him...

I normally don't post on the LoL forums but i love Rengar, he is unique, he has a unique feel and flavor (something that is missing in several champs/reworked champs), his kit is unique, he is an assassin/hunter with an awesome ulti. I have played him in many games where i assassinate someone and in chat the other person tells me how their heart almost stopped when Rengar jumped out of the bushes stealthed. They were not mad, did not rage, it gives both the player and the opponent a thrill, a rush when playing or facing Rengar. I just do not want Rengar to end up like Karma. A failed rework.
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