A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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strusx

Junior Member

07-17-2013

rip rengar


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MachoSaurus

Senior Member

07-17-2013

wtf? Riot plz Rengar is fine the way he is. If you want to talk about frustration and toxicity lets revisit elise and kennen, not to mention VAYNE. But Rengar? REALLY? You're not done butchering him yet?


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Elementalos

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Triple Q'ing isn't what makes Rengar rengar. Stalking prey, making decisions on which Ferocity Bonus to use for the right situation, leaping out of brush and killing someone, or flanking and jumping someone for an allied takedown? Those are things that make Rengar who he is. You're all right that this was intended functionality when it was put in the game - but even Classick agrees that it was also a mistake. Frontloading 500% of your AD in less than a second on a target of your choosing when no one can see you coming is just not something that's okay.

I want him to kill people - Rengar's a damage dealer and that's what he does. I would just like him to kill people over 5 or 6 seconds than 1 to 2.

I want him to inspire fear into his opponents. I don't want him to inspire rage.
I'm sorry, but no. Just no. Leaping out of hiding and quickly destroying a target is what Rengar is.

Rengar is a hunter. That's what hunters do. They plan, track, prepare... and then they kill the target quickly and efficiently.

If you take away his triple Q and try to extend his kill time out to 5 or 6 seconds he's really no longer Rengar. He's some generic bruiser who happens to look like Rengar.

I mean, I know you guys keep saying you want to keep him bursty and not turn him into another random fighter... but look at what you're proposing: Attack speed going away, burst getting more than halved... and in return he's going to be tankier and have better poke.

At that point he's got more in common with Jarvan than Kha'zix.

Hell, you even want to take away his split pushing, which wasn't as much a core identity as just the only other thing he did.

I ask you how you can tell us you want to preserve Rengar's personality and gameplay themes when you're also telling us you want to take away literally everything he does and replace it with better poke and more tankiness?

Again, Rengar is a hunter. Hunters kill their targets quickly, effficiently. They don't dick around in the middle of a battle. They make a plan, execute that plan, and walk away with the trophy.

If you want to make Rengar have more counterplay, focus on that instead:

If you want counterplay, give the opponents more opportunities to stop Rengar before he starts, force Rengar to work harder to out-think and out-maneuver his opponents before he gets there... rather than just taking away the threat when he does get there.

Honestly at this point if Stealth + Burst is your big concern here I'd go as far to say I'd rather see the stealth gutted and remade than the damage.


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Mobilized Boat

Member

07-17-2013

Don't know what Riot's obsession is with everyone being a tank. They have nerfed every AD assassin in season 3.

Junglers are even forced to build tanky with items like Locket, Bulwark, spirit of the ancient golem etc.

Gone are the days of having squishy champs who do a lot of damage, everyone is turning into a ****ing bruiser because Riot has an obsession with only having one playstyle in the game.


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lntrospective

Recruiter

07-17-2013

Wanna talk about toxic? lets talk about singed that's all. If there is nothing more frustrating to a noob would be that thing.


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Atyres

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobilized Boat View Post
Don't know what Riot's obsession is with everyone being a tank. They have nerfed every AD assassin in season 3.

Junglers are even forced to build tanky with items like Locket, Bulwark, spirit of the ancient golem etc.

Gone are the days of having squishy champs who do a lot of damage, everyone is turning into a ****ing bruiser because Riot has an obsession with only having one playstyle in the game.
Its because assassins make squishy adcs and burst casters feel bad =(


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rezaro

Junior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobilized Boat View Post
Don't know what Riot's obsession is with everyone being a tank. They have nerfed every AD assassin in season 3.

Junglers are even forced to build tanky with items like Locket, Bulwark, spirit of the ancient golem etc.

Gone are the days of having squishy champs who do a lot of damage, everyone is turning into a ****ing bruiser because Riot has an obsession with only having one playstyle in the game.
Season 2: OMG VAYNE WHY YOU SO BAD DONT BUILD FM
Season 3: Lol ur dumb liftlift does it now
Season 4: Yeah, I think it's time to build a FH. I need mana...


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MelloRed

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Rengar's abilites are still going to be decided by skill rank - the ferocity bonuses, however, will not be. This is to avoid you just doublecasting whatever you currently have more points in (like the 480 + 1.4 AD Ratio Bola Spam) and focus more on the decision point of the Ferocity bonuses themselves.

And with that, i'm out for the night. I stayed up as long as i could friends, i'll be back in the morning

The Wild Scarizard fled!
Sound about right.

I would still remove the double cast. As that still makes QQQ just too big of a burst.
Either that, or make WW stack, and EE stun. Because right now, it's not useful to them. It's always QQ.


IMO:

q: Bonus damage and AS.
Q: Armor shred.
*As more of an AA steroid, it will let you shred squishes into pieces, but not simply blow them up.

w: Rengar removes all status effects and takes 20% less damage for the next 5 seconds or until he attacks.
W: as is.
*It's now more of a disengage tool. Something to hold the gap between Qing people like crazy.

q: as is
Q: as is


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Hellbringth4th

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I seriously feel like I'm being lied to. Honestly, the added symbol over enemies in a threat range limits him overtly. I love playing Rengar. He's my favorite champ. The tweaks to his ultimate, are....well....excessive. The true global VO isn't a bad idea at all, and in fact, I welcome it. HOWEVER, adding the symbol overhead really strikes me as a severe limitation. He's really being destroyed. His ult, as a true stealth, is really what makes him so enjoyable to me. It's short, it's risky, and if you blow it, you're really hampering your ability to make good plays. Yes, Nocturne's ult is "global", but it still allows for him to use it to do interesting things, like using it to make a skirmish back off because they know he can zip right over to them, making it a balanced fight, or a 2v1. Rengar can have that ability. I think it SHOULD be "global". I admit that it can be frustrating for the enemy team, I've been there. Part of the reason why I think Rengar SHOULD have that global notification. That in and of itself seems sufficient to me. Lowering the CD on the ult is nice, but it's not like it needs to be lowered an excessive amount. As for the whole "rush in, burst down squishy, die" or "Oh te noez, I didn't kill that person, guess i'm now useless" plays into the whole "big risk/reward" pattern that you so happily sprout off whenever you make tweaks. The whole "counterplay" option you have been doing whenever you feel something is excessive. Having played copious amounts of play with Rengar leads me to believe that you don't understand what the draw is to playing him. It's about stalking. It's about that waiting for the correct moment. It's about watching, waiting, and then pouncing, killing someone, and then savoring that experience. To limit the ult to the point where "OH NOEZ, I'M CURRENTLY BEING STALKED, I BETTER RUN BACK" idea that you have put forth really disappoints me. It's not helpful. It's counter-intuitive, both thematically, as well as what we all appreciate about it. The idea of a VO allows for them to know that they're being hunted, as well as offers that idea of counterplay. but the main reason it makes the most sense is because it's GLOBAL. It makes all know that he's coming, but you don't know who for. Even if you added the symbol as GLOBAL, it makes more sense. Adding it only to people who he can see doesn't bring anything to the table, and indeed, really hampers him more than trying to fix him.

"But we bumped up the stats on him to make it so that it's balanced!"
No, no you didn't. Yes, as far as numbers are concerned, but no when it comes to actual gameplay. The fact that the idea of hunting is to not let the prey know that you are there until it's completely unavoidable and too late.

"Don't worry, he'll still have the same feel!"
Possibly, but it's not the Rengar we all fell in love with. It's a bastardized version. It's not a too terribly strong ult, but let's look at the facts. All global ults have some kind of rapid teleportation. Rengar doesn't. He takes longer to get to the prey, he takes longer to find the correct positioning. Nocturne, ult, and he dashes towards them. Twisted Fate, he reveals all of them, and then teleports to the correct position. Rengar as to find that position, and if they know about it, they can move against the position that doesn't really catch them out of place.

"Don't worry, guys. He's just making it so he has counterplay!"
Of course he already has counterplay. You have range? You have his counterplay.

TL: DR You're worrying me about this ult. It's the one thing that made him truly unique, as well as inviting interesting gameplay. A GLOBAL VO is a good idea, but adding a symbol over only those in his seeing area? That's slightly ridiculous. And more hampering than against global.

EDIT: HE'S AN ASSASSIN, DO NOT LIMIT HIS DAMAGE OUTPUT. Triple Q'ing is slightly ridiculous, but Rengar SHOULD be able to burst someone down fairly quickly, and be able to punish them for being out of position.


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rezaro

Junior Member

07-17-2013

"What we really want to do is create a good variety of champions so that every player has a few to several champions that they just get absolutely stoked about, instead of having a whole slew of champions that everyone’s kind of just lukewarm about." - Morello

So is Scarizard bad and Morello is just not paying attention to his teammates?
Or was Morello just saying that for the PR?

How many likes have been made in this thread to posts which say this will make Rengar into Xin/Renekton/Generic Bruiser # 49?