A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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IS1134176166f12c48247ba

Junior Member

07-17-2013

What about making the detection range on the ultimate lower when the target its isolated? This way you still have a counterplay while in a team fight but Rengar will benefit from certain scenarios. I know it's sounds like a Kha'zix copy, but I think it's good.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Nocturne's Paranoia is global - you remove vision from every member of the enemy team with a button. That's a global. What i'm talking about is changing Rengar's vision range from 2/3/4k per rank of ultimate to 4-5k so that it still has an extremely wide threat radius, similar to champions like Ziggs or Lux in their influence range.



Pretty far - Rengar's vision range originates from his body, so it's impossible for him to ever activate it and exceed his own vision range. Currently, people only hear VO if they are within his champion sight radius (around 1k or so) when he activates the ultimate. If he activates the ultimate while he's 'on his way' the opponent won't hear his VO play - but would see the particle above their head once he reached the appropriate range.



I'd like to address this. Triple Q with Rengar isn't like Zed landing double Razor Shurikens or Lulu Glitterlancing multiple people, or even like Kha'Zix leaping perfectly for a multi-kill. Once you know how to do it, you know how to do it.

Triple Q'ing isn't what makes Rengar rengar. Stalking prey, making decisions on which Ferocity Bonus to use for the right situation, leaping out of brush and killing someone, or flanking and jumping someone for an allied takedown? Those are things that make Rengar who he is. You're all right that this was intended functionality when it was put in the game - but even Classick agrees that it was also a mistake. Frontloading 500% of your AD in less than a second on a target of your choosing when no one can see you coming is just not something that's okay.

I want him to kill people - Rengar's a damage dealer and that's what he does. I would just like him to kill people over 5 or 6 seconds than 1 to 2.

I want him to inspire fear into his opponents. I don't want him to inspire rage.
Question admittedly inspired by staying in GD's QQ and circlejerk-prone circles for more than 4 hours:

Wouldn't Rengar die first if he was an assassin that needed 5 to 6 seconds to kill someone? I'd give him 4 seconds' worth of life, tops. He might need 2-3, but 5-6 is kind of begging for his kit to go bruiser.


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Bane of Night

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khelangren View Post
Yeah, a jump on every auto would be pretty broken.

Perhaps having the jump tied to his Q - such that the next auto after activating it would cause him to jump - would be more reasonable. Depending on CDR and whether an empowered Q is used, one would probably get around 3-4 jumps during an ult.
I could see that as being more viable. But I guess, looking at the big picture, something like that would really take away the stealth factor, and that's what makes Rengar what he is. I do kind of like that idea though, maybe add that on as a empowered Q passive? But then they'd have to take away a lot of the other empowered Q effects that I REALLY like, and I don't want that.


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Crozz

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Trying to post on my crapy phone is hell QQ, any way quick thought while i was sitting around doing nothing, what if instead of his passive being instant or having cooldown, it charged up while he was not moving? Think vi punch(forget what skill letter) or zacs jump, give it a flash range then if u stand still it gets bigger, o and for his ult, my not if a "your geting warmer" warning, like the mark starts out green, he not near you, yellow, he can see you, and red, he half a full stacked chogath from jumping on you!(or half a stacked cho? Idk, only remeber what full and no stacked cho look like)


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Crozz

Senior Member

07-17-2013

O and that might work great with his item giving move speed, nerf jump but move speed means smaller free jump, higher chance to CC him cuz he is running instead, like flash or ghost trade off


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Crozz

Senior Member

07-17-2013

o amd y not just give his item more stacks and make it so he don't lose any on death, so it can only get better, and maybe have him have to upgrade it so it can hold more stacks? Sorry for the 1 by 1 posts, once I start thinking I get 1 idea after a next xD o and unrelated note, don't read this, buff shavana team fight! Not her clear! Y no 1 make post about how to fix shyv-.- I want to clime ranked using my wifu agin!


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Atyres

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post

I'm open to suggestions here - but Rengar sorely needs more counterplay on this skill for it to retain the strength it has, let alone gain more. Give me your thoughts on how'd you like to see this done.

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As I said earlier I would like his ult to be back to where it was, instant and deadly. Twitch gets a similar skill on a semilow cooldown normal skill. Why is Rengar's ult only slightly more useful than Twitch normal skill? I also don't see a lot of people using sight wards with rengar around, which would ultimately be the counter play to his ult, just like every other stealth skill =/


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BanditManSteve

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
I feel like that still wont help, only hurt his ult. Unless the durations going to like 15-20 seconds, seems like the most you could do is trick mid or top lane. Either way once they get the indicator (assuming its something like tf's) above their head, and if you ulted from the middle of the river in order to give both of them said indicator, they will be long gone and your ult will be useless. You keep saying how you want to be able to play mind games with his, but putting an indicator over one or two enemies wont do anything but make his ultimate WORSE. Giving the indicator a global affect however will. Some of the most tense moments are whenever nocturne ults, and if he happens to ult you, you get that "OH SHIIIIIII-" moment, which is awesome. THATS what rengars ult needs IF you give the enemy an indicator that he is stealthed.


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Vae Victis

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but with these changes, do you think you could remove the delay before the empowered abilities activate? What I mean is that upon reaching 5 Ferocity, there's a brief delay before you get the empowered abilities, which makes Rengar feel really clunky and not at all smooth to combo abilities. Obviously this would be a buff, but since you're already lowering his damage...


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ZeonTheUnborn

Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
Why should they get a warning that I"m coming when I ult? Rather, why should they have that much advanced warning when I'm coming for them? That makes it better if I just never ult at all except to run away from someone or to chase them down.

The onus is on the person being ganked. If they ward their river/bushes, they don't get ganked. Why should me ulting from river alert both top and bottom lane? The only way someone would get caught by that is if they were Helen Keller. Don't make the reveal radius that large. I think it should be closer to what Evelynn has. The closer rengar moves to a target, the louder the warning. Make it something like their heartbeat/pulse quickening, that for one, would fit in with his theme of being a hunter/predator. Also, that gives an amazing rush for both the hunter and the hunted, you have this feeling of a dangerous fight about to break out so you can prepare yourself. That way, Rengar ulting won't alert everyone and their mother that I'm coming for their head.

Also about his ultimate, I was thinking something closer to what Zero has in BL2. You can pop your ultimate early and leap on someone for the insta gap closer effect, or you can wait and the longer Rengar waits the more bonus damage on his auto. That right there would be pretty fun, however, it would increase the cd on his ult, the longer you wait to pop it, the longer the cd. However that could be problematic and you'd have to remove some of the power from it.