A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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HongWeiLo

Senior Member

07-17-2013

If the symbol appears over their head when he activates it within vision range, that means he has to basically decide whether he can make it to mid/bottom lane and gank before he is within range of them, otherwise they will KNOW he left top lane and is ganking them. EDIT: Actually I was wrong, you want to give them a symbol regardless of when he stealths when he enters vision range, which is, even sillier.

Towers have been buffed over and over again and with the introduction of barrier ADCs are harder to kill (not to mention most have gapclosers And/or some form of CC. This means that when rengar ganks a lane, unless he starts the stealth at the previous tower or somewhere like that, he will have to use his ultimate.

And then, when he gets in range, they'll STILL get the icon over their head that lets them know hey here comes Rengar in the next five seconds - plenty of time to get to their tower.

I have trouble understanding why either one of Riot's designers handling the Rengar changes insist on these changes. What will happen is Rengar will still be able to use his ultimate for the vision, even more so really, but it's going to much less powerful early to mid game.

Again these designers completely ignore the concept of warding against Rengar whose ult is on a very long CD and is hardly a guaranteed kill.

Nocturne blinds the whole map and has a dash range similar to the range that Rengar can actually move from one end to the other by RUNNING during his ultimate (currently) and there's no icon to warn them that he is in range. Keep in mind for most champions, once Nocturne targets you he will follow you until he actually hits you meaning a premature flash screws you - and if you flash in most scenarios you will still be tethered to trigger the fear from E. I understand, this is a different champion and a different kit - however, the pressure from nocturne is always there because if his ultimate is up he has a pretty long zone for engaging.

I just don't uh, see where you're coming from with nerfing Rengar. He's not a low risk high reward champion. If he's fed he's strong like any other champion in the game, and even in those scenarios he's probably a glass cannon - CC and extinguish. Most brawlers will actually beat him top in the 1v1, and also have more to offer in 2v2 engagements - later on, much more to offer in 5v5 engagements (such as Jax, Xin, and even Trynd). Actually the people that Rengar does well against happen to counter those brawlers, making him a niche counterpick for the laning phase rather than a one size fits all.

Also I can't help but point out Wav3's post about him being a long duration stealth champion was the most off the mark comment that I have ever seen any concept designer post in the forums. First off, it's not permanent and it's an ultimate with a very long CD for most of the game. A deep ward can eliminate this ability's utility 60% of the time, the other 40% being lane ganks.

As for lane ganks, Lee Sin, J4, Zac, Eve can all do this 24-7 right after their first buff (2:05+). Sej, Nocturne, WW, Nautilus, Rengar just about anyone else can do this at 6.

Truly tanky tops with inherently early game damage or sustain already give Rengar a problem. They usually are still running 21-9, it's even worse when they run 9-21 masteries. In addition, some of the most popular picks and bans excel against his role/game mechanics.

I could be wrong, I have been before and will be again, but I think that the Rengar's OP claims are a little bit ignorant. I usually have the highest MR on both my accounts in ranked solo que and I can pretty much guarantee if I pick Rengar first I will be countered and camped.

There are times where I laugh about how strong Rengar can be - usually when someone is dumb enough to fight me at half HP within the two bushes top - but that's because they are allowing me to utilize his entire kit to its maximum potential.

That's like trying to trade a full rage trynd in the first two levels in melee range. Yeah, you're going to get hurt.

I don't really mind you changing Rengar but giving everyone an indication he is coming during his ultimate is possibly the stupidest thing I have heard since a Washington Senator referred to their Baseball Team as the National Mets while talking about how much he cared about them. That's time for a pink ward if we're talking objective sieging, that's time to back up to a tower, that's time for a global that already counters his stealth to pop, that's time for a number of things to happen to turn his steroid into a depressant.

Just think about it for a minute.


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MoldyChessecake1

Junior Member

07-17-2013

With all due respect, intsagibbing a target in 1-3 seconds is what an assassin does. Sustained damage over time is what a carry does. The purpose of an assassin is to kill isolated targets quickly before help arrives. Talon, Akali, Leblanc, Diana, Evelynn, Fizz, and many other champions (including even champions not assigned the assassin label) do this rather readily either with spammable spells or damage heavy combos, often incorporating stealth into their kits. Making Rengar's damage pan out over 5-6 seconds does not make him an assassin, it makes him a fighter. And in order to be a fighter, he needs to have some more tanky elements, else he'll never win a duel. (Personally, I'd rather have a squishy Rengar and have the burst than a bruiser Rengar.) In my honest opinion, you CANNOT make Rengar's damage spread out over a longer time and still say, "Rengar is an assassin." In order to do his job, he needs instagib potential just like all other assassins.

Now as for ult counterplay, the idea for warning indicators is completely detrimental to the purpose of the ult. Rengars ult gives him stealth and speed so that he can rush to a lane or teamfight and destroy his primary target (be it a lane opponent or ADC in teamfights). The indicators warn that Rengar is in the area and hunting. And if the idea of this indicator activating around 5k is carried through then it is STUPID for Rengar to activate his ult at all when ganking. The enemy will know he's coming before green wards would see him normally when not even stealthed! Rengar would be better off just ganking without his ult in this case!

Also, what happens if the new upcoming oracles is brought through with the current suggested Rengar ult? A support buys oracles earlier in game even when they might die because the effect will no longer go away after death, but will rather last a full four minutes. This lowers the value of stealth spells across the board, not just for Rengar alone, because again, most assassins are going to target the enemy ADC, which is much harder to do when an oracle'd support is standing nearby.

If you want to introduce the counterplay you desire, then you risk making Rengar's ult useless. Making a global VO on the other hand, is potentially too powerful because it induces caution on the whole map for the enemy team. But then again, you can't see Nocturne or anybody else when he activates his ult. Rengar's ult with VO would put enemies on alert, while still having normal vision! Nocturne can jump on you from literally nowhere, you will rarely know which direction he's coming from during his ult ganks, but you also lose sight on the whole map save for yourself! Rengar's ult allows him to jump on you but you still have standard vision (not to mention pink wards if the support is willing to invest <3).

TL;DR: Rengar needs to burst to fill an assassin role and giving enemies in his ult "radius" a warning indicator defeats the purpose of his stealthing in the first place.


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Luninareph

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.
I love the idea of only playing the sound effect for the people within range. I am already enjoying the idea of ulting in the river so that both top and mid flip the hell out.


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VSVGazelle

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphaz View Post
I suggested auditory cues somewhere back ther but I like the heartbeat idea. +1.
Hadn't read all 80 pages of black posts prior to mine, only right arrow'd the red ones so sorry about sort of taking your idea and running with it! You may partake in my upvotes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ijust1u View Post
They would never do that because people who cant hear or play with sound off would be at a disadvantage.
Hunters in the wild seek out those at a disadvantage }:D On a more serious note, I see you point, but I'm just working off of precedent; if Riot wanted to game to be able to be played on mute, would Janna's tornader only give an auditory cue when in a bush? Would several skillshots generate different noises when coming into contact with a target making it feasible to use some vague sort of echo-location to scout bushes? The game already places the aurally challenged at a disadvantage.


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Ashes Arise

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Most confusing change proposed is the ult. What is the point stealthing in the first place if you are going to start screaming "Hey I'm sneaking up on you". You don't yell "I'm sneaking up on you" when you are sneaking up on someone. That is just going full ******.

If you don't want him sneaking up on people just remove the damn stealth and give it something else. The current idea is just stupid.


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HopesAndAmbition

Junior Member

07-17-2013

God dammit Riot, why can't you just leave him alone? HE'S FINE THE WAY HE IS!

Yes I'm mad, you ruined him, you have ruined an awesome champ, again.... -.-


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Bane of Night

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I don't mind what you're doing to change his Q-W-E abilities, however, I'm not too sure how I feel about the ideas you're giving for his ultimate. In my opinion, there are 2 really big reasons why Rengar is fun.
1) Jumping out of bushes is just hilarious and makes me happy no matter if I'm doing well or not.
2) His ability to surprise.
You let people know if he's in the area, it completely takes away that element of surprise. Maybe what you should do instead is only let people know he's there if they get within x distance of his LEAP range, not if they're in his vision range. I want to be able to come out of the jungle without anyone knowing I'm there. Make it so I'm able to do that, but then let them know when they're dangerously close to my leap range so they have maybe a second or two in advance to get out. I don't want to ult in the river and in the 5 seconds it takes to get to lane, they're already at their tower. It's no fun.

And in regards to a post that said you want him to be able to kill someone in 5-6 seconds instead of 1-2, please don't do that. I agree 1-2 is really short, but 5-6 is too long. It'll make Rengar just an average champ to play, and no one wants average, people want fun. However, I do trust that you'll make him fun.


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Kelhan

Senior Member

07-17-2013

It will not be a long detailed post, but only a short opinion here. I have an play only Rengar account, and I love it.

Please, keep his assassination feeling. From what I'm currently seeing, you're moving away all the power of his assassination tool Q to beef up W and E, thus making him another generic Bruiser... I can understand the "give more counterplay" thing, but I think you are already doing this a lot by revealing Rengar at the beginning of the leap (allowing the enemy to nullify it with abilities like Vayne's Condemn or Thresh's Flay) and giving a warning particle on his ult.

These two last changes should be enough to give counterplay to Rengar and to let him have his major burst potential. Rengar isn't made for long engages, he roams, find a target, obliterates it and either walks away or die doing it.

Anyway, as the things look like now, he'll become an immovable bully in lane, which you WILL nerf since that's what you did again and again to popular top laners (Udyr, Irelia, Vladimir, WW etc) and at the end of the day we'll have a reworked Rengar that had power shifted to W and E, but since these now allow him to bully too much while sustaining and guarantee winning trades, you will tone them down a lot, thus making Q, W and E average. Rengar will become another: Generic. Tasteless. Bruiser.


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HongWeiLo

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Riot concept designers going full ****** about the ultimate.

You never go full ******.

Also counterplay exists against Rengar top and Rengar in the jungle, even support Rengar.

Wards. Armor. Building outside that rush brutalizer, longsword pots, or red elix pots. It's the same as Riven, except Riven is stronger in the dueling but weaker in the ganking. Riven is her own champion, while Rengar is his own, though not for long!


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CapnPie

Senior Member

07-17-2013

up the sell value to 650 and you get rid of the famine