A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Heart to Hart

Senior Member

07-17-2013

As some people have mentioned, and to some effect I agree, the visual notification of Rengar being nearby during his ult somewhat detracts from the feel of being an Unseen Predator.

I understand the need to provide counterplay for his ult through some form of notifcation and I can support that, just not if it's going to be visual.


What I'm saying is we've got more than sight as a sense. A visual notification is a bit too blatant. When something i sneaking up on you from god knows where, the observant are the ones to notice before it's too late. And again, we've got more than just sight as a sense.

Without any further ado, I suggest: sound. When Rengar ults, the screen goes red as his vision is filled with the promise of spilt blood, his prey's heart visible in his greedy and still naturally functioning predatorial eye. His target, unaware of any of this, the oncoming Stabby Tabby, sees the world normally. Yet, they can't shake the fear that something is indeed out there. The fear takes hold, their heart starts beating faster until BAM cat out of nowhere.

Less artistically, I'm saying that instead of a visual notification through some sort of particle, notify summoners aurally - play their racing heartbeat out through their speakers. Prompt their hearts to race irl! This fits in with the idea of him actually being able to hide himself. Those not paying attention to the all too easily missed signs of an approaching Cat O' Death fall prey to said Cat. Those who're making full use of their fear find themselves hyper alert to their surroundings and can come up with an escape route or plan for a counterattack to the predator they know to be nearby.

TL;DR Don't use visual notification / particles to notify people of Rengar's proximity. Instead, play an elevated heartbeat-esque noise when he draws close.


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Cuix

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I was gonna look through this thread, because rework discussions are always interesting... then I saw that it was Scarizard, and that the first wave of changes went into "damage according to level" twice.

After Karma was completely deleted and replaced with basically no warning, I absolutely cannot trust Scarizard. If the Rengar changes are handled with greater grace, then I will change my opinion. That is very possible, and I do feel confident that he will try... but until then, reading his posts regarding a rework/tuning just puts a sour taste in my mouth.

Multiple "according to level" numbers on a champion's skills makes it feel significantly less satisfying to level those skills, and also tends to result in weird snowballing cases with awkwardly shifting power spikes.


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Graphaz

Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VSVGazelle View Post
As some people have mentioned, and to some effect I agree, the visual notification of Rengar being nearby during his ult somewhat detracts from the feel of being an Unseen Predator.

I understand the need to provide counterplay for his ult through some form of notifcation and I can support that, just not if it's going to be visual.


What I'm saying is we've got more than sight as a sense. A visual notification is a bit too blatant. When something i sneaking up on you from god knows where, the observant are the ones to notice before it's too late. And again, we've got more than just sight as a sense.

Without any further ado, I suggest: sound. When Rengar ults, the screen goes red as his vision is filled with the promise of spilt blood, his prey's heart visible in his greedy and still naturally functioning predatorial eye. His target, unaware of any of this, the oncoming Stabby Tabby, sees the world normally. Yet, they can't shake the fear that something is indeed out there. The fear takes hold, their heart starts beating faster until BAM cat out of nowhere.

Less artistically, I'm saying that instead of a visual notification through some sort of particle, notify summoners aurally - play their racing heartbeat out through their speakers. Prompt their hearts to race irl! This fits in with the idea of him actually being able to hide himself. Those not paying attention to the all too easily missed signs of an approaching Cat O' Death fall prey to said Cat. Those who're making full use of their fear find themselves hyper alert to their surroundings and can come up with an escape route or plan for a counterattack to the predator they know to be nearby.

TL;DR Don't use visual notification / particles to notify people of Rengar's proximity. Instead, play an elevated heartbeat-esque noise when he draws close.
I suggested auditory cues somewhere back ther but I like the heartbeat idea. +1.


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TVankUberAlles

Junior Member

07-17-2013

I really hope Rengar doesn't get the Karma treatment because someone thinks that Rengar can't be counter-played. Seriously, on the subject of his ult, an oracles or a pink ward effectively helps counter it. The problem is that people won't invest in those things, because they're stupid. Let them suffer. IF you make it obvious when he's ulting then it's like a water-downed version of Nocturne's ult (people know you're coming, you don't get a dash AND you aren't clouding anyone's vision).

Also, you keep saying "Let's add counter-play and buff some aspects of Rengar." How is nerfing the DR on his W, removing a good portion of his split pushing capability, and taking away the STEALTHINESS of his STEALTH buffing him at all? You ALSO want to decrease his burst. How is this BUFFING an ASSASSIN? The only thing you're buffing is his ferocity bonus, but what good is it if you're lowering his burst? The primary purpose of ferocity is to help pick up kills... Oh, and I suppose you are buffing the stats that his STEALTH provides, but hurting his ability to STEALTH...

By the way, the Bonetooth Necklace isn't a "win-more" item atm, according to the AD it gives and its cost, it's cost-effective as early as level 8. I shouldn't have to tell a Riot employee that...

I could go on, but I'll just leave it at Rengar's current win-rate: 45.88%.


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lDanthera

Junior Member

07-17-2013

Scarizard and Wav3Break,first of all,ty!I main rengar and I appreciate so much that you guys are spending some of your time not only balancing rengar but making him a healthier champion overall,'cause I know how it must be frustating to the other playes when I go instagib mode with IE+SotD.


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ijust1u

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Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VSVGazelle View Post
TL;DR Don't use visual notification / particles to notify people of Rengar's proximity. Instead, play an elevated heartbeat-esque noise when he draws close.
They would never do that because people who cant hear or play with sound off would be at a disadvantage.


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Rinder5

Junior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
To clarify - i'm still interested in Bonetooth being a stack item that works on kills and assists. As a trophy hunter, it's pretty key to who he is as a character and the reason it was implemented in the first place. My big issue however, is that right now it's purely a snowball item with only one really interesting augment.

I'm interested in exploring a bonetooth with less AD/stats (the 5% cdr and 10 flat armor pen) and as a tool that is more aspirational for Rengar - an item that opens up and accentuates the part of Rengar's stalking/predatory gameplay instead of just letting him kill you harder. For instance, one idea Wav3 and i have been talking about is retuning his '+25 Movement Speed' all the time to '+X% Movement Speed in Brush' - would the combination of that passive alongside the Leap Range increase or others like it make you more effective at lane-ganking? Would you want to take care to fight in the jungle instead of in the lanes? The item would still have enough stats to be worth a slot imo, but the main interest i have is with the effects and if we have an opportunity to take something that is currently a 'win-more' item and turn it into something unique for his play experience overall.
Not sure if this is possible to implement or not with the current league system, but how about when Renger gets 6 or so stacks, he gains the passive of the champion which he has the most K/As on at the time? It gives him a unique new ability that changes the game dramatically, as the player will need to choose which opponent to prioritise killing, and it gives him the feeling of actually hunting down a target, instead of just aiming for someone who steps out of bounds. Also, it allows the opponent to counterplay, by protecting whoever the enemy thinks Rengar is trying to target for the ability.


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TVankUberAlles

Junior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijust1u View Post
they would never do that because people who cant hear or play with sound off would be at a disadvantage.
Good. Let them be. What else is there to expect...


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S2 flaRe

Junior Member

07-17-2013

for rengars i get the problems he has in his kit so for his q could the ferocity bonus make it due true dmg instead so u dont have that insane atk speed stack on double q and lowers his effectiveness in structure pushing then with his ult increase his run speed, decrease invis duration but increase his leap range for a period of time, so u still see him but he still has that ability to jump at your face.
and for his bone tooth could it be made like viktors augment where he has it in the start and he can "evolve" it, while still having the bonus on kills/assists. by lowering the ad it gives so its not a huge advantage and for instance if the evolution is for a skill like viktors is(having an item only for the champion is reminding me of him sry bout that) having his q burn his roar can give him the dmg reduction or ar/mr and his bola can hit muliple people in a line and the path it travels leaves a line that slows. it could be like the material is better so it stretches from tagret
in a line rooting those hit and leaving the bola there as a tripwire slowing enemies that pass through it.


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Malah

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I believe we can special-case items for multiple map modes. Tear/Manamune/Archangel's Staff have different versions of them on Dom/TT, so i imagine we could enable something like that.
If we're removing it on Dominion, for the love of god, don't add it back unless you're ripping out most of the combat stats or at least make it only stack with kills. It is way too easy to get a highly stacked necklace at the moment and it provides ludicrously good stats for what it actually costs.