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A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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rock me dr zaius

Junior Member

07-16-2013

t seems like Riot is struggling with redesigning the gameplay of Rengar now that he's become this no-counterplay stealth assassin. They don't know exactly where to take him, but they do know what they don't want. Thus nerfs for Q and R--the main components of Rengar's burst--balanced by E/W buffs. Without any real mechanical change to his E and W, I think we can assume these are buffs aimed to balance Rengar's loss of power in Q/R, rather than an attempt at changing Rengar's gameplay pattern.

Here's a gameplay pattern for his ult that I think would be good. So we know certain champ ults force people to play positionally; don't group vs Amumu, Malphite, etc. Assassins, on the other hand, force you to cluster together--protect your squishies. Right now the counterplay behind other assassins is based partly on the squishy's positioning--stay away from the Kassadin/Fizz/Zed. Why should Rengar be singled out and nerfed? I think it's because a lot of complaints are based around the fact that you can't see Rengar coming, and Riot's proposed changes are basically to give a sort of warning to the squishies. But the problem is; Rengar, unlike Fizz/Kassadin/Zed, has a time window for his stealth to reach you AND he has no way out. Once a squishy has this notification, he can run behind his tanks, count to ten, and he's safe. Wasted ult from Rengar.

What do lions force their prey to do? Herd together for safety. Lions stalk. They wait for the right moment to pick off the weak. What don't lions do? Lions don't fight someone their own size. Lions don't go after the baby rhino in the middle of the herd and risk being gored by Big Bad Momma Rhino. So keep Rengar's relative squishiness and keep Rengar's insane burst. Keep Rengar's weakness against herds--lack of escape.

So keeping that idea in mind, here are my thoughts: Sure, give Rengar's enemies the notification that he's on the hunt. Give Rengar's targets the counterplay of huddling together for protection. But don't take away Rengar's ability to outplay the counterplay. Instead, change something to enforce the fantasy of a lion stalking its prey, who can punish slight positional errors with a scary, lightning fast strike. Something like (separate ideas):

Give Rengar an absurdly long time in stealth. Let him lie in wait...and wait....until the enemy squishy becomes "tired" and makes a positional error.

Give Rengar "true stealth". No oracle reveal. No tower reveal. Only revealed by range, like Eve's stealth. Once he strikes, he can be targeted by towers. This means if a squishy is too weak to take Rengar one on one with turret assistance, he can't just run behind two turrets and laugh at a wasted Rengar ult; he's GOT to stay with the pack. He's got to stay in the middle of the pack and hope one of the herd spots Rengar early so the rest of the herd can assemble in the correct protective formation.

Rengar's ult marks a single target for the hunt. Rengar gains enhanced damage versus this target but decreased damage on everyone else. This allows even the squishy support to provide adequate defense for the marked target, and encourages the marked target to "herd." In this case, instead of the usual assassin counterplay of "stay in the back," the positioning counterplay for Rengar can be "stay in the middle."

Rengar is basically the Predator, right? So remove the enemy notification but give him the Predator graphical shimmer within a certain range. This is the counter-play. Observant squishies will see the shimmer and move away. Observant champs with CC will see the shimmer and move to intercept. Observant Rengars will see the enemy positioning change and back off.

I think the key here is that whatever notification is given to Rengar's enemies, Rengar and his team must be given an equal chance to capitalize; as in, if Rengar's ult is being countered by the enemy huddling together, this should give an AOE initiation team an opportunity to take advantage of that positioning.

TL;DR:

  • Reward Rengar for using his ult by giving him kill potential higher than other assassins 1) who have an escape 2) don't need to blow a cooldown BEFORE an enemy squishy makes a positional error
  • Reward enemy players for being able to react to Rengar's ult defensively (eg, herding vs a lion, spotting the predator shimmer)
  • Reward Rengar and his teammates for having the coordination to adjust to the enemy defense (eg, force the enemy to group -> Malph ult)
  • Punish Rengar for going in on a well-defended squishy (eg, Rengar tries to flank but gets spotted by enemy Xin Zhao; Rengar is now out of position and Xin Zhao's team can engage on Rengar and blow him up)
  • Punish Rengar's enemies for not adequately responding to Rengar's ult


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Sleepingfire

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Scarizard:

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?


I like the fact that I wouldn't have to save up 800 and buy it straight up, allows for earlier access without taking a chunk of gold I would need for other things. However, while I realize machete is in there to make the cost of it "lower" for jungle rengar, I'm worried machete being budgeted in there will reduce the overall power of necklace enough outside of last hitting in lane that people might be deterred from it. If it used to be 0 stack cost efficient at level 8 for example, it would now not hit that same level of efficiency vs champions till 10 or 11, which is a long time if you're not able to get a lot of stacks on it.


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ChocoKelly

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Scarizard:
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?


What is the point giving infinity stealth and movespeed and giving his target to warning ? Im dont think someone could outrun this value. Also Dont you worried about 12sec stealth infinite split push? Why would you do this to Rengar? Silly effect, i dont like you tbh Scarizard. You're changing my main champion and hes fun to play.

Also, what about fadepushback time?

You're just doing this to my Renga ; Removing damage, giving infinite splitpush power.
You dont know what are you doing.


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Graphaz

Member

07-16-2013

In the current iteration of his ult, how far can Rengar effectively travel to track down a target? Can he exceed the range of his ult from where he cast it? And if do, do enemies hear the VO once they get into the range of it?


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konfetarius

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?

Is that enemy reveal range on top of enemy warn range? These changes are potentially very Dominion unfriendly.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Scarizard:
Trying to balance catching up on posts and doing actual work - a few points:

1. Please remember that the changes to Q are in testing, and that the lack of an effect on Q is placeholder. It might be returned to %AS on Q and ??? on Q2. Previously we had 'If Savagery strikes a champion below 50% life, gain an additional ferocity point' which we had some pros and cons. When judging the changes understand that the goal is to lower the burst potential of these two spells and that shifting them into tools for sustained damage is a win for Rengar's balance overall - but i don't intend to leave either part of this skill bare.


Bellow 50% CHAMPIONS? No, just no. The biggest problem on Rengar jungle is that he before Lv3 takes forever to get ferocity, and on meta right now, at Lv3 you wanna gank, not speed up farm. So if you wanna remove the attack speed, make that 50% ferocity bonus proc on jungle monsters AND champions, just not minions, and that would make him good and probably not broken, the way i think.



Quote:
Scarizard:
2. Some people seem to like the counterplay we're introducing to his ultimate, and some of you don't. I'm open to suggestions here - but Rengar sorely needs more counterplay on this skill for it to retain the strength it has, let alone gain more. Give me your thoughts on how'd you like to see this done.

Gonna go grab some food, but i'm at least caught up on this threads' posts.


I accept the counterplay, i dont see a problem with it, the only real stealth with no tell would then be Twitch, who is a risky positioning based champion, that makes stealth all balanced over all.
If the move speed is good, then its still a great skill to use to gank. Only thing that I might worry, is that, it wont have the same pressure as a Twisted Fate ult that marks you doesnt matter where you are, i fear that early levels it gonna be just like Warwick E: a gank tell cause of low range.


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Joystick

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Hey Scarizard,

About the necklace, I had a few ideas about on page 44 if you remember reading over those. What are your thoughts? They include it building out of machete as well as how is should scale to feel good but not OP. I'm no designer but I thought they were pretty decent!

Cheers!


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Tattersail

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Scarizard:
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?

Nocturne ult isn't Global either.... I have a feeling you're not listening all that well to what a lot of people have been saying. Having a global notification that Rengar is stealthed gives me people warning that he most likely going to jump on somebody, and if you happen to be that person who's overextended/in a bad spot, you better prepare for that. I fail to see how that would be a bad thing. It accomplishes the wanted effect of notifying everyone and at the same time, doesn't let the one person you're actually going for be like, oh he's after me, better back out of this.

In regards to Eve comparison. Eve is PERMA stealthed, it makes sense for her to be revealed at some point, since you NEVER see her. In Rengars case, it's a brief period of time where he has stealth and it's his ultimate. Oracles or Pink wards already counter him, if you go through with revealing his leap at the beginning instead of how it is now, will also counter him. Revealing his stealth when he reaches a close proximity is a double whammy. Read what Only Rengar wrote. He summarized it very well, and I think a lot of people agree with him.

Edit: Regarding bolded: Why not? Why can't Rengar put that pressure on the lanes? Nocturne and Tf BOTH are capable of doing so, even though they can't reach from bot lane to top lane. TF in fact can only teleport a little less then half the map but reveals every enemy on the team. Why is Rengar not allowed to have a global VO saying he's ulted (kind of like Noc) even though he may or may not be in range of certain lanes.


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Decapitatertot

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Leave him. Nothing wrong with triple Q; it's fair to reward someone for actually playing the game well.


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The Shiken

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Scarizard:
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?

OKAY can u tell me why both Nocture and TF and do not have fully global ultimates but their effects on the enemy team are FELT map wide as i do know TF cannot fully tele port completely across the map but he still can see every thing on the map even though he cannot reach it

And for nocture his ultimate is not FULLY global either but his DARKNESS full covers the entire map

If these Rengars changes were to go through i would expect TFs' ultimate to only show the enemies that are in the radius he can teleport to

And for Noctures Darkness to only effect the radius of His ultimate