A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-16-2013
11 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad Croly View Post
How much counterplay is enough but not too much, though?

If you just gave it a global VO or something, alerting everyone in the match that he's using his ult, is that enough counterplay? Because putting little particle effects over the heads of the people nearby him feels like too much. What's the point of going into Stealth if the people he's hunting are explicitly told he's nearby and hunting them?

And I really don't think the stealth should go away, because it really helps him with ganks.
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
On another note tell us how the hell this is a buff to his ult?


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Tsuusetsu

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Trying to balance catching up on posts and doing actual work - a few points:

1. Please remember that the changes to Q are in testing, and that the lack of an effect on Q is placeholder. It might be returned to %AS on Q and ??? on Q2. Previously we had 'If Savagery strikes a champion below 50% life, gain an additional ferocity point' which we had some pros and cons. When judging the changes understand that the goal is to lower the burst potential of these two spells and that shifting them into tools for sustained damage is a win for Rengar's balance overall - but i don't intend to leave either part of this skill bare.

2. Some people seem to like the counterplay we're introducing to his ultimate, and some of you don't. I'm open to suggestions here - but Rengar sorely needs more counterplay on this skill for it to retain the strength it has, let alone gain more. Give me your thoughts on how'd you like to see this done.

Gonna go grab some food, but i'm at least caught up on this threads' posts.
If your interested about giving him some more sustained damage for his Q, do instead of doubling the AS from his empowered Q, simply increase the AS duration by a couple seconds for each rank of his ult. 1/2/3 seconds, giving a maximum of 7 seconds at lv 16.

his W needs no change, but if you must, give him reduced damage by 10% plus extra for each rank.

Say 20%/22.5/25/27.5/30% reduced damage for....4 seconds. Or 3. This would give him a perfect chance to activate it say, when hes being focused, so he can survive the burst. The numbers could be altered of course...even a 20% reduced damage would be nice.


His E needs increased range. I have thought this since he came out. Its to short, you cant even hit people who are running most of the time. It has a shorter rang then Ezreals blink I think. Change it to a root with an additional decaying slow if used with ferocity.

Bola snares his target for 1/1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2 seconds, dealing physical damage. If used with Ferocity, then slows the target by 20% for 3 seconds. This gives him a chance to catch up to his target, and stick with them while they run.

As for his ult. Letting people be aware of him is the worst thing you can do. I would MUCH rather you simply REMOVE the stealth aspect of it, and instead let him jump while visible, and give him a larger jump. This would let him gank, but remove the huge 'uh oh' button to let him get away from 3 people.


TLDR. Your changing rengar far more then needs to happen. Your removing his assassin traits and forcing him to be a bruiser. It should be a CHOICE for him. Let him be the stabby cat he is supposed to be. He is a PREDATOR. Not a fighter. When is the last time you saw a tiger fighting with a deer.....you havent. you saw the tiger pounce from behind, and rip the dam thigns throat out. Let him do this.


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Recently

Senior Member

07-16-2013

The counter-play to his ult sounds too strong for buff its receives (cd reduction is nice, but duration increase won't help really with the new warning system)

At the very least, the fade time to become invisible will have to be like nearly instant for it to be viable, because a 1000 range gap to cover is pretty significant even with the jump, unless you're playing against someone that is asleep.

Or else, give the first attack used out of his ultimate some sort of secondary CC effect, like maybe a short duration silence or something, that rewards you for actually getting the hit off (because the way i see it, any half competent person playing against the new rengar ult will get away fairly easily with flash since they will have at least 1+ second of warning time from the indicator/noise to prepare to escape.


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Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
How would that work for non-classic maps such as Dominion that don't get access to Machete?


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Shad Croly

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
Okay, I can probably agree with you there, if the range on it was really, really big. Not global level, but enough that multiple people are gonna hear it and nobody is sure who he's going for. There can be advanced warning, I'm not gonna try and contest that one, but there should still be some mystery and surprise with it as well, because there's no hunt if the prey knows for a fact you're nearby hunting it.

As for the Bonetooth Necklace retool, that doesn't sound too bad (though I dunno how helpful my opinion is, since I don't think I've jungled with Rengar in months).


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-16-2013

This is just like when Riot "buffed" Rengar in the past.


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AhhItsAlan

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Member

07-16-2013

no renguu changes pls. ty. :')


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Tyrauk

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
Again, the counterplay makes all kinds of sense mechanically. Its pretty disappointing thematically. Big cats pounce suddenly from stealth, not with warning. I think if you are going to diminish this, you need to get some cat awesomeness back in elsewhere in his kit.

I also think whatever warning you give should not last as long as the Nocturne or Twisted Fate warning. He can't get there as fast as they can, no sense in giving people forever to notice he's coming.


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The Shiken

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Rengar Changes

As it seems that you guys are trying to buff Rengars jungle then why are you going through with these ULT changes.

As a jungler who relys on farming till 6 to get a successful gank off to have his precence to known to the lane that he ganking so they can just back off.

Also with wards inearly every lane nowdays this particular rengar would have to ult quite far away from lane to get a successful gank off OH, but wait theres this thing above my head and with the distance he has to travel to get to his target this simply (in my head) provides to much counter play for an ultimate allowing me to back off. ( unless his new Ms boost would b close to a weaker version of HOMEGUARDS).
Lets say im the Enemy caitlyn and i see a little mark over my head i could simply stand over a trap of mine and simply cancel his ult completely

IMO for champs like akali,eve,and twitch u guys added large ways to counter play these champs
(Akali: small shroud but u still know the area she is in),
(Eve unlimited stealth but as soon as she gets close she will be spotted),
(Twitch good stealth but very long delay if attacked giving large counter play to kill him on the spot as he is a squishy ADC)

In my honest there should not be as much counterplay for Rengars ult as there is for these other champions as their stealth abilites are located as minor abilities or passives and Rengars is a Ultimate with a much longer CD
(as there is already counter play for his ult already which is a 3second delay for his ult if he gets hurt)
and if (theres a problem with a splitpush rengar you can simply drop a ward in lane to see where he is and effectivly stop his split push)

NOTE: while i know u guys dont like to consider pink wards as a Form of COUNTERPLAYspending a simple 125G can effectivly shutdown a a 2minute cooldown honestly spending a 125g to effective make a champions ult near useless is a large form of counter play in my book as it really is not a good way to counterplay champions like akali with their stealth on a MUCH lower cooldown