A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Auryiel

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07-16-2013

I'm glad I don't play Rengar, because seeing another champion I like being changed by someone who clearly does not give two f*cks about the player base of the champion would be really annoying.


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Myke

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Rengar View Post
I'd personally like to talk to you in private if that is possible ^.^ but these are my thoughts on your current changes

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

This looks good, definitely something riot over nerfed

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

This actually sounds like a pretty big nerf, hopefully the speed of the leap stays the same but adding this and making people already know he is coming makes me worry a lot that he will be useless in teamfights just due to how easy it will be to peel him. (Don't forget this probably means people will be able to flash your jump before it connects)

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)
Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Looks like you have pretty much dumped on Q's face, this skill looks pretty pointless right now and it seems you want Rengar to be this Tanky DPS rather than assassin. It also seems you want him to be in the jungle which isn't a bad thing but I love playing him top and I feel Riot shouldn't take away his position there.

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks
Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

So pretty much with the nerfs to Q it seems we will be seeing the tanky Rengar come back with Sunfire/Visage and spilt all day. With the base damage and cooldown reduced on this ability it will allow him to clear quicker and even though the heal isn't scaled on health it will still heal more than it would with health scaling if you don't only stack health but build resistances.

The change from Armor/MR to damage reduction from AD sounds a little troublesome, you have totally taken out his MR buff for nothing if you want to get rid of these free defensive stats maybe make it like takes 5% reduced dmg? It kind of sounds broken so you could always mess around with the numbers.

Another problem that arises with this buff to W is the return of AP rengar. If you reduce this abilities cooldown and buff its base damage, while nerfing his Q all leads to the reason to just play AP again. The only thing I'm unsure of is how you plan on giving the damage on ferocity spells, will it do more dmg than W if im maxing it first? If not that just seems really weird and wouldn't make the "ferocity bonus" feel right.

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Once Again with these buffs towards his base damages on his E and W it seems you guys want him to return to his tanky state? Now rather than Rengar sniping off an opponent he seems to be one who roots them up deals a bit of damage and allows his team to clean it up.

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt

I don't get the reason you add this, if you are already nerfing his huge burst why is there a reason to make him so noticeable to others? This completely ruins the most fun thing about him being a sneaky champion who scares the **** out of people. At the moment it feels this ability is going to be more used to scout people out with its low cooldown and more to just scare people off rather than using it to initiate onto someone. The reason this isn't a problem with nocturne is because his is a global darkness making everyone be scared, also his range to leap is far larger than Rengar's making it so he still can connect his gank before the enemies flee far. With Rengar you only have to get worried if you see a symbol on your head, taking away his global fear to other lanes and making it really easy to just play passive till the symbol goes away.




Over all thoughts -
Riot seems to make no sense with Rengar, at first he was this crazy AP nuker, once that was nerfed he became a tanky spilt pusher, than once that got nerfed he was unseen for a long time. At the moment Rengar is coming back into play slowly because people finally found out they can just build him full assassin. I was totally fine with this because this was how riot wanted Rengar to be played. And now with these changes it seems like you guys think assassin is to broken on him so your changing him back to this tanky champion. I personally hate these changes as a Rengar main as it totally kills his playstyle and pretty much makes him this new champion. With these changes I feel Rengar will have a lot of problems trying to fight in teamfights as he is really easy to peel if he doesn't finish off an opponent with his first leap. With the current changes Rengar seems to now be a big lane bully with increased base damage on his W and his E. He will return to maxing E or W and now with scaling damage on ferocity will just spam W in lane to heal from it. His laning will be godlike and he will just push top non stop. There is no point of him trying to roam because people will easily walk away. His ult will be used to dominate top harder, by either running away or by 2v1ing while waiting for your ferocity to recharge in ult. The thing is you wish to make him a champion who is a sustained fighter, but the problem with that is he only has 1 leap out in the open and is melee. Not a lot of melee fighters are viable at the moment because they are so easily pealed, it really saddens me you make his ult visible to all and I truly believe it will be the one of the most useless ults compared to what it is used for now.

If you wish to continue with these ult changes I beg that you atleast give everyone the icon/ sound so it isn't so obvious where Rengar is going.

I would really like to help you guys out with these changes, so if you would like to talk more and get into detail (numbers, etc) my ign is Only Rengar, I've sent both of you requests and hope I can contact you guys!

Not everything might make sense because I'm sort of just ranting and I just woke up but oh well =)
^


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Tattersail

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Rengar View Post
I'd personally like to talk to you in private if that is possible ^.^ but these are my thoughts on your current changes

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

This looks good, definitely something riot over nerfed

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

This actually sounds like a pretty big nerf, hopefully the speed of the leap stays the same but adding this and making people already know he is coming makes me worry a lot that he will be useless in teamfights just due to how easy it will be to peel him. (Don't forget this probably means people will be able to flash your jump before it connects)

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)
Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Looks like you have pretty much dumped on Q's face, this skill looks pretty pointless right now and it seems you want Rengar to be this Tanky DPS rather than assassin. It also seems you want him to be in the jungle which isn't a bad thing but I love playing him top and I feel Riot shouldn't take away his position there.

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks
Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

So pretty much with the nerfs to Q it seems we will be seeing the tanky Rengar come back with Sunfire/Visage and spilt all day. With the base damage and cooldown reduced on this ability it will allow him to clear quicker and even though the heal isn't scaled on health it will still heal more than it would with health scaling if you don't only stack health but build resistances.

The change from Armor/MR to damage reduction from AD sounds a little troublesome, you have totally taken out his MR buff for nothing if you want to get rid of these free defensive stats maybe make it like takes 5% reduced dmg? It kind of sounds broken so you could always mess around with the numbers.

Another problem that arises with this buff to W is the return of AP rengar. If you reduce this abilities cooldown and buff its base damage, while nerfing his Q all leads to the reason to just play AP again. The only thing I'm unsure of is how you plan on giving the damage on ferocity spells, will it do more dmg than W if im maxing it first? If not that just seems really weird and wouldn't make the "ferocity bonus" feel right.

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Once Again with these buffs towards his base damages on his E and W it seems you guys want him to return to his tanky state? Now rather than Rengar sniping off an opponent he seems to be one who roots them up deals a bit of damage and allows his team to clean it up.

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt

I don't get the reason you add this, if you are already nerfing his huge burst why is there a reason to make him so noticeable to others? This completely ruins the most fun thing about him being a sneaky champion who scares the **** out of people. At the moment it feels this ability is going to be more used to scout people out with its low cooldown and more to just scare people off rather than using it to initiate onto someone. The reason this isn't a problem with nocturne is because his is a global darkness making everyone be scared, also his range to leap is far larger than Rengar's making it so he still can connect his gank before the enemies flee far. With Rengar you only have to get worried if you see a symbol on your head, taking away his global fear to other lanes and making it really easy to just play passive till the symbol goes away.




Over all thoughts -
Riot seems to make no sense with Rengar, at first he was this crazy AP nuker, once that was nerfed he became a tanky spilt pusher, than once that got nerfed he was unseen for a long time. At the moment Rengar is coming back into play slowly because people finally found out they can just build him full assassin. I was totally fine with this because this was how riot wanted Rengar to be played. And now with these changes it seems like you guys think assassin is to broken on him so your changing him back to this tanky champion. I personally hate these changes as a Rengar main as it totally kills his playstyle and pretty much makes him this new champion. With these changes I feel Rengar will have a lot of problems trying to fight in teamfights as he is really easy to peel if he doesn't finish off an opponent with his first leap. With the current changes Rengar seems to now be a big lane bully with increased base damage on his W and his E. He will return to maxing E or W and now with scaling damage on ferocity will just spam W in lane to heal from it. His laning will be godlike and he will just push top non stop. There is no point of him trying to roam because people will easily walk away. His ult will be used to dominate top harder, by either running away or by 2v1ing while waiting for your ferocity to recharge in ult. The thing is you wish to make him a champion who is a sustained fighter, but the problem with that is he only has 1 leap out in the open and is melee. Not a lot of melee fighters are viable at the moment because they are so easily pealed, it really saddens me you make his ult visible to all and I truly believe it will be the one of the most useless ults compared to what it is used for now.

If you wish to continue with these ult changes I beg that you atleast give everyone the icon/ sound so it isn't so obvious where Rengar is going.

I would really like to help you guys out with these changes, so if you would like to talk more and get into detail (numbers, etc) my ign is Only Rengar, I've sent both of you requests and hope I can contact you guys!

Not everything might make sense because I'm sort of just ranting and I just woke up but oh well =)
This, this is completely what I had wished to express.


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Fright Night 85

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Rengar View Post
I'd personally like to talk to you in private if that is possible ^.^ but these are my thoughts on your current changes

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

This looks good, definitely something riot over nerfed

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

This actually sounds like a pretty big nerf, hopefully the speed of the leap stays the same but adding this and making people already know he is coming makes me worry a lot that he will be useless in teamfights just due to how easy it will be to peel him. (Don't forget this probably means people will be able to flash your jump before it connects)

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)
Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Looks like you have pretty much dumped on Q's face, this skill looks pretty pointless right now and it seems you want Rengar to be this Tanky DPS rather than assassin. It also seems you want him to be in the jungle which isn't a bad thing but I love playing him top and I feel Riot shouldn't take away his position there.

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks
Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

So pretty much with the nerfs to Q it seems we will be seeing the tanky Rengar come back with Sunfire/Visage and spilt all day. With the base damage and cooldown reduced on this ability it will allow him to clear quicker and even though the heal isn't scaled on health it will still heal more than it would with health scaling if you don't only stack health but build resistances.

The change from Armor/MR to damage reduction from AD sounds a little troublesome, you have totally taken out his MR buff for nothing if you want to get rid of these free defensive stats maybe make it like takes 5% reduced dmg? It kind of sounds broken so you could always mess around with the numbers.

Another problem that arises with this buff to W is the return of AP rengar. If you reduce this abilities cooldown and buff its base damage, while nerfing his Q all leads to the reason to just play AP again. The only thing I'm unsure of is how you plan on giving the damage on ferocity spells, will it do more dmg than W if im maxing it first? If not that just seems really weird and wouldn't make the "ferocity bonus" feel right.

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Once Again with these buffs towards his base damages on his E and W it seems you guys want him to return to his tanky state? Now rather than Rengar sniping off an opponent he seems to be one who roots them up deals a bit of damage and allows his team to clean it up.

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt

I don't get the reason you add this, if you are already nerfing his huge burst why is there a reason to make him so noticeable to others? This completely ruins the most fun thing about him being a sneaky champion who scares the **** out of people. At the moment it feels this ability is going to be more used to scout people out with its low cooldown and more to just scare people off rather than using it to initiate onto someone. The reason this isn't a problem with nocturne is because his is a global darkness making everyone be scared, also his range to leap is far larger than Rengar's making it so he still can connect his gank before the enemies flee far. With Rengar you only have to get worried if you see a symbol on your head, taking away his global fear to other lanes and making it really easy to just play passive till the symbol goes away.




Over all thoughts -
Riot seems to make no sense with Rengar, at first he was this crazy AP nuker, once that was nerfed he became a tanky spilt pusher, than once that got nerfed he was unseen for a long time. At the moment Rengar is coming back into play slowly because people finally found out they can just build him full assassin. I was totally fine with this because this was how riot wanted Rengar to be played. And now with these changes it seems like you guys think assassin is to broken on him so your changing him back to this tanky champion. I personally hate these changes as a Rengar main as it totally kills his playstyle and pretty much makes him this new champion. With these changes I feel Rengar will have a lot of problems trying to fight in teamfights as he is really easy to peel if he doesn't finish off an opponent with his first leap. With the current changes Rengar seems to now be a big lane bully with increased base damage on his W and his E. He will return to maxing E or W and now with scaling damage on ferocity will just spam W in lane to heal from it. His laning will be godlike and he will just push top non stop. There is no point of him trying to roam because people will easily walk away. His ult will be used to dominate top harder, by either running away or by 2v1ing while waiting for your ferocity to recharge in ult. The thing is you wish to make him a champion who is a sustained fighter, but the problem with that is he only has 1 leap out in the open and is melee. Not a lot of melee fighters are viable at the moment because they are so easily pealed, it really saddens me you make his ult visible to all and I truly believe it will be the one of the most useless ults compared to what it is used for now.

If you wish to continue with these ult changes I beg that you atleast give everyone the icon/ sound so it isn't so obvious where Rengar is going.

I would really like to help you guys out with these changes, so if you would like to talk more and get into detail (numbers, etc) my ign is Only Rengar, I've sent both of you requests and hope I can contact you guys!

Not everything might make sense because I'm sort of just ranting and I just woke up but oh well =)
If anyone knows rengar its this guy.

Personally i think his views should be more than just listened to.


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Orillio

Member

07-16-2013

I hope these changes don't go through
it's lame that riot claim to want him to be less of a splitpushy assassin when these changes will just limit him to 2 playstyle or build options

A) build sword of the divine and 100 to 0 the AD carry in a teamfight like he does now except he has to build it for the attack speed due to his Q not giving it anymore. this will be even more annoying because the rest of his stats have been buffed and being able to see him won't stop his burst due to his ult movespeed being buffed even more.

B) dominate lane through W spam and become the biggest lane bully in the game due to increased health and tankiness and ranged harass. this allows him to stack nothing but health and transition into an incredibly annoying splitpusher because his ult cooldown will be lower, it gives more movespeed, and the particle/sound effect will make it more viable to use offensively than defensively.

basically these changes are just reverting him to release rengar without addressing any of the reasons people dislike about current rengar. the attack speed nerf is nothing because he can still triple cast Q, and still burst you in 3 shots with a single item. nerfing that in exchange for buffing every other aspect of his kit and trying to gut his offensive uses for his kit doesn't seem like the right way to go for a champion who was explicitly designed to be an assassin.


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Allocir

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Member

07-16-2013

A few things I want to share about Rengar:

-Please don't restrict him to the Jungle. I don't like him as a Jungler at all, but I love him as a top laner. That said, the bonetooth necklace building out of hunter's machete could still be cool as long as it isn't a nerf to top laners (in this case, it would just be a straight buff to Junglers who chose to build it).

-What if W provided some very short term big damage reduction (like 1 second)(preferably with a readable visual to tell him and enemies that he has big DR for a moment, similar to a spell shield), followed by a smaller defense buff for a duration similar to what it has now? This would allow it to be used reactively to soak up a big incoming damage source (more decision-making for Rengar, more counterplay for enemies), while still preserving its current function as a less noticeable temporary defense steroid and allowing you to remove some of the power from that less noticeable aspect. I feel like this would address W's problems without having to pigeonhole it into being only effective against mages or ADs. EDIT: This sounds like it would be really broken on current Rengar, where he does immense damage within the 1 second window the W could provide, but if he really is changed to not have such abusive burst and to have better sustained damage, this could fit really well into his kit.

-Bonetooth necklace needs to remain viable with no stacks. The way it's set up now is awesome, but you're absolutely correct that changing the stacking bonuses from stats to more interesting mechanics would be great - as long as those mechanics spice up his gameplay, instead of being necessary for him to succeed.

-P.S.: Movespeed in bushes is already taken, and would feel useless since most of the time that you care about, you aren't moving IN bushes, you're leaping OUT of them. Also, I feel like Global VO for Nocturne is too awesomely unique (Nocturne has the best thematic ultimate in the game, hands down) and shouldn't be shared with Rengar. VO when he's in sight range sounds cool enough.

Thanks for your attention to one of my favorite champions!


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
Did someone say Placeholder? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3346129

Also, making a placeholder comment isn't really the best idea. Better to just post a new one so it bumps the topic and puts it back into the redtracker.
Morello always posts placeholders and then never returns to the thread.


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Hadron Kalideo

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryiel View Post
I'm glad I don't play Rengar, because seeing another champion I like being changed by someone who clearly does not give two f*cks about the player base of the champion would be really annoying.
rito james reworks are disasters in the making

don't forget karma friends

EDIT: oh god it's scarizard again


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Ecl1ps3

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I recently got in to playing Rengar, and I completely understand how instagibbing the carries is toxic - fun, but I would hate to be the ADC getting slaughtered. My biggest issue with changing Rengar is that a) without Ferocity, he's almost completely useless. Is it possible to buff his standard abilities so that without Ferocity, he's still able to fight? Either that, or make his Ferocity generation slightly faster (e.g. lower cd possibly?) b) Without bushes/ulti, chasing someone down is a real pain. I understand his leap passive is extremely strong, but only in the jungle. I find it pretty hard to catch up to someone who has a significant advantage on me (e.g. Caitlyn can kite really hard, then slow me while repositioning herself.) Even with E, Rengar without bush is like fish out of water (or kitty without milk). Is it possible to address these issues?


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Sleepingfire

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

I'm curious now about the use case of his ultimate.

If at risk players are notified he ulti'd, how is it any different than just a speed buff a la bear stance? Is there even a point to the stealth on it? Wouldn't it be the same if it just made him run faster and enabled one passive leap?

I don't disagree that they need to be notified, because the current HOLY****LIONIJUSTGOTGLOBALED implementation is not so great for Rengar's prey, but now I feel like the stealth portion is pretty much relegated to being useful for escaping only, which doesn't really fit into a "Hunter" theme.

Besides that, the ONE passive i care about on bonetooth is the leap range one, i strive to get it and keep it every game, but the 0 stack necklace should remain a viable option imo or you'll see it being bought as often as sword of the occult. All for interesting stack bonuses over the current ones. I think an effect (maybe at full stacks?) that not only changed the player's interaction with Rengar, but the enemies' interactions with him as well would be cool. Like something to the psychological effect of nocturne's ulti. "Oh **** a fully bonetoothed rengar is on the prowl" vs "oh **** I might get jumped by rengar"