A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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IonDragonX

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfDrDeath View Post
Bonetooth Necklace: How about, having it build out of Hunter's Machete?
In one way, that would restrict his game play (unable to rush it in lane). In the other way, it would open him up for a better jungle experience, really playing into his thematic...
It's a good idea. If Riot can't do this, could we make the Bonetooth Necklace replace his boots entirely? The current BN is something like 1/2 of a pair of boots, so why not make it +45 instead? It would be like an extra item slot. Viktor players have always complained about giving up their 6th item slot. It makes them feel like they can't itemize flexibly, like all the other champs.


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LeFondler

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippopotamus G View Post
Yay lets water down another champion!
Devs at Riot seemed to be trained to do that these days.

Sigh.. if this rework goes through I will want to refund Rengar and the skin I bought too :/


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SPARKAMUS PRIME

Senior Member

07-16-2013

How about you rework Warwick first?


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ƒuyumi

Member

07-16-2013

Scarizard, any news on Shyvana? She seems to be ignored right now, considering that she has a crippling Q bug that hasn't been hotfixed. :<


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LeFondler

Senior Member

07-16-2013

The whole point of Rengar's ultimate is to be able to surprise champions, not to let them know they are about to be killed. If you Rioters change Rengar in that direction, he will be ruined. Read the reddit post about it http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ack_on_rengar/


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Yesimfrigginevil

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.

Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!

Here are the changes (Without numbers, as they are subject to change/tuning as always) that we've been testing so far:

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)

Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt
"We wanted to balance out the issue Rengar is causing by being able to burst someone at level 2. We wanted his level 2 to fall more in line with other bursters who can't all-in you at level 2, like Xin Zhao, Renekton, and Elise. Additionally, we really wanted to allow more options for top lane picks, like Renekton and Elise, so we removed Rengar's defenses against them. We also wanted to remove his ability to instantly delete someone from the map. This will allow for more viable top lane picks like Elise and Elise. Oh yeah, and Elise too."

TL;DR: Here's an idea. Let's take an assassin who is already feast or famine, take away all his assassination potential and nerf his only defensive option, without buffing anything that makes Rengar Rengar.


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Hallows Evelynn

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Though there is concern that having this kind of stacking/snowball mechanic on Rengar creates a "feast or famine" play pattern, we intend to make Bone Tooth Necklace an item that really accentuates the predator play style of Rengar and not necessarily something that is core for him to function
u mean like dravens passive? hue hue hue.

srsly tho, why is it ok with draven(its NOT btw. he sucks all game if he cant get those stacks to cash in) but not ok with rengar?


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Launchpad

Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
.... I'm interested in exploring a bonetooth with less AD/stats (the 5% cdr and 10 flat armor pen) and as a tool that is more aspirational for Rengar - an item that opens up and accentuates the part of Rengar's stalking/predatory gameplay instead of just letting him kill you harder. For instance, one idea Wav3 and i have been talking about is retuning his '+25 Movement Speed' all the time to '+X% Movement Speed in Brush' - would the combination of that passive alongside the Leap Range increase or others like it make you more effective at lane-ganking? Would you want to take care to fight in the jungle instead of in the lanes? The item would still have enough stats to be worth a slot imo, but the main interest i have is with the effects and if we have an opportunity to take something that is currently a 'win-more' item and turn it into something unique for his play experience overall.
This is quite possibly the most exciting thing I've heard about rengar for quite some time. I can't tell you how many times I've felt that I should have been able to gank lanes faster as jungle rengar.

I play rengar top lane but I believe he does belong in the jungle. By giving him this bonus to the necklace it's almost like saying, "go rengar, be free where you aught to be. flying through the jungle threatening every lane, not just camping one"


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Signature13

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Please don't go ahead with the ult changes.. Overall it seems like everything you're changing about Rengar is a nerf. Sure, you may be tweaking numbers for late game, but his early game has always been what was so formidable, and caused people to buy a cloth armor to defend against him. If he doesn't have that burst.. the enjoyment of playing Rengar will be destroyed.. You're just watering him down to a noob-friendly version so the few people that complain because they can't think for a second that a non-fed Rengar is a useless Rengar and will always fight him lvl 1-3. And especially if you go ahead with the changes to bonetooth necklace, making it built from Hunter's machete, would force his signature item to be only cost-efficient in a jungling role, whereas most Rengar players now play him top lane. All in all, the changes you seem to be proposing all seem to screw over his early game, and take out the fun in juking with his ult. It's not so hard to counter.. Pink wards and oracles.. People just refuse to buy them. Please don't mess up with Rengar like you did with Karma..


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Crüniac

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I am a huge Rengar fan and want to request a few features that might make him more appealing.

1. Bonetooth Necklace should have more stacks than its last ability bonus. Like 15 so if you're doing well and you make a sacrifice play you could have a minor cushion. This might make him a little op so perhaps not.

2. His ultimate should drop him to all fours. Not sure how to deal with his weapons while this is going. This has no gameplay significance, but would add even more of the prowling feeling that all the heartbeats give you.

3. If you jump on someone you expect them to be surprised, or winded, or shocked, or something... I don't know if you could balance this fairly, but I feel like when Rengar jumps on someone, it should slow them, knock them back, stun them, fear them for a quarter of a second, something like that. That could well be a Bonetooth addition. I say this not just because it would be realistic, but because I always get really annoyed when I jump someone and then they just flash or dash away (I'm looking at you Ezreal, Cait, Kassadin, and Kha'Zix). Edit: You could also just give him a speed buff that extends out of his ult to that he's more sticky when he tries to assassinate someone.

I have tons of champion ideas, so if you want more crazy, just ask.

Edit: You could also make his Ult warning be a dark red glow (or a pair of translucent Rengar Eye's overlaying most of the screen, not too obscuring though, with the sound of his growling breathing) around the screen that's really scarey, and make it globally visiable. It would warn lanes, but not make it painfully obvious what was about to happen. It'd also be funny because when Nocturne ults, everyone runs to the bushes, but when they saw this, they'd all flush from the bushes. I also do realize that as his vision isn't global he shouldn't affect everyone, but it would just be nice to retain a bit of the surprise factor, so you can still trick people with your ult.