AT LAST! Scarizard you bring a tear into my eye, you cannot know how long ive been waiting for this thread.
Ive been playing Rengar since he was out on PBE, i bought him the instant he came out (im a diehard predator fan), and recently i picked him up again in my main (im playing in South America), and im dying to give you feedback. Before i go on about the changes i would like to see and my ideas on his kit, id like to give you my thoughts on the Bone Tooth Neckalace, some of the changes im saying here have to do with some of the ideas i have for his Kit change, bear with me for part 2.
Part 1: The Item
My idea for it radical: Make it a starting item.
By making it a starting item, that gives rengar a unique advantage to other junglers, your not only tailoring him as a jungler but also giving him an alternative to machete and its items.
My proposition would be as follows:
1. Hunter's Neckalace/ Cost: 350 gold.
Effect: Rengar's basic attacks deal 15-20 increase magic damage to Neut monsters.
Effect: If Rengar gets a kill or assist, he gains a Trophy stack, these stacks cap at 25 and carry on to Hunter's neckalace's upgrades, but do nothing on there own.
purpose: the idea here is like this, get an item that allows Rengar to start building stacks from the beggining of the game (everyone knows that stack items are a huge gamble for junglers), thus it inactivates Rengar to gank and make plays, instead of having to get the item mid game and then try and get the stacks from there.// Since Rengar is a more aa champion, giving Battle roar's low damage at early levels and Bola's strikes long cd, it would be better, since he also has AS steroids, to give him increase aa damage instead of that % increase damage that machete gives. I think this would improve his clear time and allow rengar to start setting himself up for mid game right from the start.
Upgrade: BoneTooth Neckalace/ cost: 350 Total Cost: 700
Stats: Plus 2+ Ad per level.
Effect: If Rengar gets a kill or assist, he gains a Trophy stack, these stacks cap at 25 (see Ult changes that help him get stacks faster) and carry on to Hunter's neckalace's upgrades, but do nothing on there own.
Purpose: This cheap upgrade that rengar can get on the first back would give him some more Punch to gank lanes instead of that extra damage he needs to kill minions. Its cheap cost would also allow Lane Rengar to pick it up relatively early so he too can start building stacks, without it being ridiculously OP item since it scales with levels.
Now comes the real idea.
Giving Bone Tooth Neckalace 3 distinct upgrades. One for defense, one for Offense, and one for utility. Rengar would only be able to choose one of the 3, similarly to Victor's Hex core thingy.
This would be where the Stacks gain effect. And instead of giving him only raw stats, would also help to augement aspects of his kit.
Upgrade cost: 800 Gold. Total item cost: 1500 gold.
Proposed effects that can be given based on stacks:
1. Rengar's battle roar gives an extra 5 armor and magic resi for every enemy champion in the radius.
2. Rengar's gains % reduced damage from minions and monsters.
3. Rengar's EmP Battle Roar heals for an extra X amount.
4. Flat Hp, defensive stats, CDR.
(Again, these are just ideas)
Proposed effects that can be given based on stacks:
1. Longer stealth duration/ detection radius(see kit changes)
2. Increase movement speed, CDR
3. Bola Strike range increase
4. " " Slow/root increase
5. Possible active effect at certain stacks?
6. Increase Passive range? (could also be put in offensive upgrade)
Proposed effects that can be given based on stacks:
1. Q AS steroids last longer.
2. % Arm Pen for Emp Q
3. Increase AD+ per lv
4. Increase %damage for New ultimate (see kit ideas)
5. Other offenseive stats
20 Stacks Active effect: Rengar Reveals enemies around a 3000 unit radius for 5 seconds. Entering combat will end the effect. (I thought to remove this from his ult -see Kit changes- and add it to the item)/ 90sec CD.
Purpose behind the change: This would open a huge amount of build options for Rengar, since right now he is limited to a more assassin build. If he is building Tankiesh, he could upgrade his Item to Offense to make up for some of the lack in damage, or vice versa, he could get the defensive stats if he is building assassin, or Utility stats if he wants to make more plays.
The basic idea behind the new item is that it should be something that is a DEFINING part of Rengar, an item that people would be fools not to get, as well as giving him a clearly visible advantage in the jungle.
Part 2: Kit Changes
Im played around 600+ games with Rengar on my Main account, please dont lower his empowered savagery. Ok I agree INSANE ULTIMATE NERF(!), But dont lower his Damage, since he is all about snowballing, dont remove TOP LANE RENGAR from the game and if you're doing this to his ultimate please remove fadepushback time.
My thoughts for Bonetooth necklace is that it is decent item except for the fact when you do the kha vs rengar easter egg which is an unfair advantage is that if kha wins he receives a 4th evolution when rengar only gets a fully stacks that are permanent. I think that kha wins because the 14 stack number is achievable without easter egg.
As for his ult, I think ever since the nerf where can't use if he has taken damage in the last 3 secs is ridiculously "WAY TOO LONG." by time you use you other means of escape Flash/bush leap to a minion and since the only true HP item that you build is Black Cleavers that doesn't make you a Tanky shen you are already dead. I agree that Instant ulting away from ganks was too stong of a tool but, makes it useless if you compare it was a escape tool like other assassins such as Talon/Kha. The thing that really made me upset with the ult nerf was that if you cast ult and then you take damage you are sometimes practically dead and you end up dying your ult finally stealths and you are already dead and your ult is on cooldown that makes no sense. If you really think about it Twitch, Kha, Talon, Eve, Teemo, Akali, Shaco, Vayne, and Wukong are not all op because they have stealth abilities it smart player counter play them with items called Vision Wards/Oracles. So please lower the 3 secs for his ult to be usable again.
If rengar vs talon/kha duel at level 6, rengar ult completely not usable during the fight then that is broken to me.
As a preface to this, I've been playing as and playing against Rengar in a variety of skill levels - from pre 30s all the way to Diamond. I’m by no means the most knowledgeable guy in league, but I hope you’ll take the time to hear me out. Rengar is still strong in the hands of a decent player, and exceptionally good vs an ungrouped and uncoordinated team. The problem however, is one rooted in the kits of all assassins - if the carry doesn't die, then the champion becomes useless. Currently, live Rengar is extremely strong early game, in the jungle, making picks, and at split pushing, while being very weak in the open with no ultimate. I think the changes I propose tone down his instagib potential, keep most of his strengths in the jungle and in 1v1 situations, and grant him options in open area teamfights.
Issues in the OP:
Lvl 2/frontloaded burst – Change Rengar’s q to have initial damage and apply a bleed with an bonus AD ratio. This (depending on numbers) stops frontloaded burst, increases sustained damage (especially when most melees only have time to get a few attacks off before getting kited), and extra Qs past the first can extend the duration. The bleed debuff can have interactions with other spells, such as his E – ex. Slowing more with a regular E when the enemy is bleeding, or even turning Rengar’s next attack into a leap when he hits the bleeding target with an empowered E. This might allow for a Rengar to create plays such as ult at high ferocity, prep the Q, jump onto carry, root with empowered E, and jump out, allowing the time for the team to arrive and clean up the half hp carry that’s probably now zoned from the fight.
Adding onto the q change, if Rengar jungle viability is a priority, maybe have empowered q give him some splash/cleave damage so that lane Rengar can use emp Q to clear.
Battle Roar – A battle roar should inspire your allies and cripple your enemies. What I wanted to do was to make a mechanic opposite Kha’zix’s isolation – something like +5/10/15/20/25 armor and mr per ally within range (although the range would have to be pretty decently sized) in order to help out his defenses. Another jungle Rengar change could be so that Battle Roar steals/reduces the attack damage of minions around him (another contrast with Kha’zix who absolutely doesn’t want to fight around enemy minions). To address the issue of weakness in open teamfights, a movement speed boost onto the empowered w should help him close the distance in open terrain and make getaways in similar areas.
Bola Strike – I think this ability is already great, just because most people don’t max this first doesn’t mean it’s a nonviable way to play. It’s basically a 25 shorter range, MANALESS Pantheon spear, and everyone knows just how hard Pantheon bullies people in lane even with limited spears.
These changes increase Rengar’s mobility and usefulness within a teamfight setting, but we should definitely look at where he’s currently VERY strong and maybe tone that down a bit. Inside the jungle/brush, Rengar gains infinite gapclosers, which is something pretty frustrating to be on the receiving end of. I propose we put a cooldown on his gapcloser in the brush (something like 10 seconds or so, whatever feels right), but allow him to reveal units within the circle, which allows for some very slippery escapes through the jungle (red buff to golems, mid lane to blue, etc.) that would have previously required a ward.
As for Bonetooth Necklace, I think granting stacks on minion kills would help make it a more interesting item choice rather than a win more item. Each minion can add a stack, siege grants 2, champions 25, and bonuses can be given at 40 or 50 stacks. To reduce the impetus to rush for stacks after a death, the necklace bonuses should persist while the stacks themselves should decrease by some amount (50 possibly). For the interaction with Kha’zix, if Rengar wins the necklace should simply grant full stacks and be absorbed, thus not taking up an item slot. I’m still coming up with more ideas for the bonetooth bonuses, let me know if anyone would like to hear them.
TLDR – not trying to make Rengar viable for competitive play, just trying to tone down the assassin in him while bringing up his weak points.
stop effin palyin up with rengar hes not broken in any way u guys just constantly wanna nerf him cuz u cant shut him down...fyi oracles got changed ..u guys nerfed him hard af last time and then rebuffed him and now ur going at it again.. why dont u nerf tryns damage? or khazix again nooooo nerf the rengar again
Long time Rengar player and main here.
Part 1: item changes
Part 2: Kit Changes
Before i start, let me say what i belive Rengar's playstyle is, and thus it may help you understand why i think some of these changes/ideas would benefit him:
To me Rengar is a Predator, and im talking Arnorld alien trophy stealth hunter of the jungle tipe Predator (you know what i mean). Someone who can stalk and study his opponent. Who can set up AMBUSHES! An invader, and unseen threat that could pounce at you at any moment. A formidable close quarters giant armored white lion hellbent on taking your skull.
Thus, i belive him to be primarily a jungler, but also a decent top laner. Alright, enough of this, down to the Kit ideas:
Ferocity: Every 4-5? consecutive basic attacks will build 1 ferocity stack. Caps at 5 to give access to Emp Abilities. W, E, and R do not give ferocity. Q gives 1 stack of Ferocity.
Explanation: Counterplay. This would let Rengar build ferocity much more consistingly, especially in the jungle, where he is AA all the time, but it would also increase his counterplay against opponent, who if they can deny him AA or reduce his AS they can potentially chuck his damage output and strenght. This also prevents a Rengar who is playing very defensively to simply spam his abilities from afar and use his EMP W to heal everything off. The new Ferocity format promotes aggresion, and his synergies well with his Q.
Passive: Unseen Predator:
Effect 1:Same as before, Increase AA range when in bush or stealth, range 600.
Effect 2: If Rengar stands still and takes no action or damage for 4 seconds, he enters stealth. Taking action will break camoflauge. While stealth Rengar can use Effect 1.
Explanation: Couple of reasons for this change, here me out before freaking,
1. Rengar would seem like the type of champion to set up ambushes, be it in the jungle or in the lane. Suppose you see that your enemy is heading to his red, you can get there ahead of time, and set yourself up for an easy ambush, it would give Rengar a unique counterjungling mechanic no one has. This would also open up options in lane, Maybe rengar backs off a bit and stealths, the opponent thinks he is gone and pushes, only to be jumped on. TLDR: Ambushes.
2.This fits the name of the ability perfectly
3. Due to some of the nerfs i think his ultimate needs (which i will get too), this change still allows him to maintain a form of 'True' stealth that isnt OP and needs to be used smartly.
(R) Ultimate: Thrill of the Hunt:
Passive: When out of combat for 8/6/4 seconds, Rengar enters stealth only being able to be seen by enemy champions within 700 range or true sight. While Stealthed, Rengar gains 10/15/20% Mov speed. RENGAR CANNOT USE HIS LEAP PASSIVE IN THIS TYPE OF STEALTH.
Active: Range: 400-500? CD: 90/70/50sec
Rengar Leaps onto a Target enemy champions. Dealing a small? Flat/Percentage%current HP as physical damage and Marking them for 5 seconds. Rengar passive Q Increase damage (see Q changes) to the marked target is doubled. If the target dies within those 5 seconds and Rengar is in possession of a BoneTooth Neckalace item, he will gain 2 stacks instead of 1.
Explanation: ok, for starters, the passive stealth Change is for several reasons:
1. Stealth is used to much as an escape tool, and often times can be preety frustrating due to the delay. This means that Rengar would not really be able to have that abussive Stealth in lane to escape.
2. It befits his Jungler role as a ganker and play maker. While mainting his playstyle of Stalker/Hunter that roams (hence the mov speed) the jungle and is hard to pin down. The removal of the leap means he wont be able to perma ult gank all the time (especially since he gets this at lv 6). While the removal of the Mov Speed should he take damage means he has to plan his assault with some care, since now he is more kitable.
3. The playstyle of stealth+leap would still be conserved, if yo combine the active and passive effect (and the active bonetooth proposition at 20 stacks), but now has a lot more counterplay to it.
The new active effect would give Lane Rengar a bit more dueling potential. Since his Stealth is not usefull in a pinch and can often times hinder him due to the delay. It would also help him increase how quickly he gains stacks, since his item is now has more max stacks counts.
(Q) Savagery: CD: 8 / 7.5 / 7 / 6.5 / 6
Passive: rengar basic attacks apply stacks that cap at 5. stacks increase Rengar's autoattack damage on the same target by a %(small) amount. Switching targets resets stacks. Stacks fade after 5 seconds of not being refreshed by rengar's aa.
Active: Rengar's next basic attack deals an additional 20 (lv1)- 150(lv5) physical damage, and gives him a ferocity stack. After the attack ends, Rengar gains increased AS speed for a few seconds.
Empowered: Rengar's next basic attack deals 40 (lv1)-300(lv5) physical damage. Rengar's AS boost is doubled. Struck target's have there Armor reduced for a few seconds by a % ammount.
Explanation: Right now Rengar is playing like a bursty champion in lane. He cant duel or all in for **** against mostly anybody. His playstyle of building stacks for EMP Q then zoning out people in lane has little counterplay to it, its either: Stay out of range or get chunked.
I belive giving him a passive that becomes better the longer Rengar stays in combat and promotes dueling and AS (since his Q gives him AS), would allow Rengar to better duel against many opponents while nerfing the unfun aspects of his unfair Emp Q, escecially at early levels. Obviously his passive's advantages are reduces with attack speed reducing effects and kiting, thus creating more counterplay for him. The new % armor pen on his Emp Q allows rengar some counterplay to Armor stackers who currently can mitigate most of his Q damage, thus rendering his only source of damage nulified and rengar in a very difficult spot.
(W) Battle Roar. CDN: 13 /12 /10 /9 /8 Range: 500
Active: Rengar roars, gaining a %increase in AD and 15/20/25/30/35 armor/mag reis plus 2+ per champion struck for 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds.
Emp Battle Roar: Rengar heals for a Flat amount of HP/scales of lvs
Explanation: The removal of the magic damage is a must. Its so pitiful at early levels, scales of AP which no one uses anymore (or shouldent use), that i belive giving it flat stats for 'battle' is more beffiting of the ability. Obviously it comes with some nerfs to the armor and magic resis, but buffs to the duration since i belive the Empowered should be a different ability all toghther. Thus rengar should be carefull which he uses and when and for what purpose.
(E) Bola Strike: range: 550-700 CD: 12 /11 /10 /9 /8
*Now a skillshot
Active: Rengar throws a bola in a line that colides with the first enemy champion struck and deals flat physical damage, and slows the target. Rengar can hold down the ability to charge it, increasing range and damage.
Emp E: Rengar Throws a Net in an small AOE (about same syze as Syndra's Q), dealing flat physical damage and rooting all enemies caught in the area for 1.5 seconds (slow is not applied). Charging the ablity increases its range.
Explanation: This would make the ability better overall, increasing skillgap, since now you have to aim it, and offering counterplay (dodging it). As well as making it a more usefull in lane. The new AOE effect in the empowered version would allow for trapping multiple enemies should it be throw in the right direction and time, but would also allow it to be dodge since its now has a travel time and its an aimed ability (better for teamfights)!
Wow, that took me 4 hours damn. I would really appreciate your opinion on this Scarizard!
Edit: omg Only Rengar in this thread! Wut u think of my ideas :3 plz i watch ur stream all the time
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