A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Gypsy Hyena

Member

07-16-2013

I used to love Rengar in the s2 jungle, and what drew me to him was the playstyle based on stalking without being seen, having to prepare for fights with his ferocity stacks and having next to no tools to get out of a fight once he's committed.

He ended up losing his stealthy playstyle through being nerfed hard enough to stop him jungling (at one point there was no way to clear the jungle without a decent pull unless you pulled out full AD runepages or something equally silly) which forced him into being a toplane champion through-and-through, meaning he had very little opportunity or reward to remain unseen beyond hopping into a bush for half a second to enable his gapcloser.

He never really did have much of a need to juggle ferocity stacks as a jungler because he was only really punished if he engaged with 0-2 of them, and in the lane it's even more easy to control ferocity.

Having to commit to a fight is fun most of the time, but it made him insanely reliant on using bushes as a way of sticking to highly mobile enemies. Jumping on Morgana and getting melted was still fun, jumping on Ezreal and having him shift away and wear you down in a position you can't reach was just frustrating.


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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

07-16-2013

RIP Karma


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Confide

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Hey Scarizard! I personally find Rengar to be my favorite champion in the game. I love his play style and overall theme (they go extremely well with each other. In my opinion, he is one of the (if not THE) overall most cohesive champion currently designed and implemented.

Here's my opinion of your proposed changes, and what else you could do with Rengar instead (as well as what I think of him, in general)-

Edit2: Oh, a few things I didn't mention. I much prefer playing Rengar top lane. You will have to change his kit a bit too much to make him really work as a jungler, or make him a bit too much more tanky. I don't think he's a good match as a jungler. He's an assassin. (While his assassination powers are a bit too strong right now,) I think it's the best role for him, and it really is cohesive with his kit and overall feel. Second, is the Bonetooth Necklace. I don't think you should take this item into account when balancing Rengar. It should be an item to be built for fun, which has fun bonuses. If you make it too strong, you have to nerf Rengar - and making him dependant on the item should not be an option. If you try to make it just about stats, but it's not strong ENOUGH, then well the item just is going to feel useless. So it has to not be about direct stats (attack damage), it should be about the bonuses. The bonuses should be worth getting in certain situations, not the "i'm getting kills, so lemme stack further" idea that the Bonetooth is now. Honestly, the item is probably going to be the trickiest part to include in all of this because it's an item that's JUST for him, and therefore can easily be a tipping point in making Rengar too strong, or too weak by himself. All in all, I say focus on Rengar by himself at first and preserving the assassination gameplay without screwing him over. Honestly, the most radical and disliked change (to me,) is the ultimate one you have proposed. Please read mine, if you read anything in this post.

General: This is good, and a step in making his fights last 'longer' rather than being straight burst. However, be careful with this, as wasn't this an area that he originally had nerfed in the first place?


Unseen Predator: Fair enough, I think this is also part of that whole thing where Vayne was visible only after her initial auto hit when she was in stealthed? At least to me it feels like it's trying to match all of these things up, which I'm all for even if it's a 'nerf.'

Savagery: Fair enough, since you're buffing it on the Ferocity Bonus. However, I'd actually like to see it swapped - increase the attack speed on Savagery, and instead on the Ferocity Bonus, have it lower armor. My reasoning for having it this way is simple, in that if you were to have Savagery decrease armor, it will automatically enchance the rest of his combo (which is just taking a step backwards.) Instead, once you get part of the combo off, it enhances the longevity of the fight while he is auto'ing with Q.

However, that's if you decide to do something such as putting armor reduction on Q at all. That's just something I think would go with his kit.

Battle Roar: I like the changes, makes using it for damage seem actually impactful. However, I dislike having removed the bonus MR. Instead, I'd have it hybrid of what you have it now- have it grant bonus MR, and reduction of auto attack damage (not straight armor.) That way he is still somewhat tanky from both sources of damage. Though I'd not put the MR too high, since his damage is already strong. I just don't want Rengar to be getting bursted too hard.

Another idea for Battle Roar: Keep it the same it is now, except that the more targets you hit, the higher resistances you have .This would encourage him to get in the middle of the battle more, not just picking off the squishiest target that's sitting in the back. Also makes it so he can be a little bit ballsier without his ultimate.

Ferocity Bonus W: Eh, I'm fine with this. Don't have much to say on this one.

Bola Strike & Ferocity Bonus E: I like this, except I'd make one of these a DoT to encourage the 'longer fights' Rengar idea. Overall, your changes will make Bola Strike feel more impactful, which I like a lot.

Thrill of the Hunt: I like everything except the last change. Instead, I would rather have it do something similar to Eve; where if he gets too close, then he is revealed. I would have this range be actually SLIGHTLY (key word) larger than his leap range, so that if an enemy is quick to react they can catch him before he's on top of some one, but he's also still scary. A giant warning beacon of "hey he can see us so he's somewhere in this range" really takes away from his feel and almost makes it too easy to. . . counter him.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'd just like to say overall I feel the problem with Rengar is that his burst is just too high, and he is too squishy to have a drawn out engage. Keep him playing an assassin role, just. . . not the 100-0 in 2 seconds kind of assassin.
I would also consider looking at the cooldowns on his Q and E to encourage him to continue fighting, and not just back off because he's used his full combo (or that the enemy is dead, since hopefully they won't be 1 comboe'd anymore.)

Sorry if my language kind of repeats itself in a few places. I've edited the post a few times so the same/similar thoughts might be expressed multiple times.


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Awful Feeder

Senior Member

07-16-2013

So our precious kitten can't delete the most annoying threat before being CCed to death?


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-16-2013
9 of 81 Riot Posts

Placeholder to post things about Rengar based on discussions i've had today with Wav3 and some of the Live team. Currently on page 36 of 50.


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Foochy

Senior Member

07-16-2013

im so excited for riot to **** all over rengar. These changes are worse than olaf tier. Why fix what isnt broken? Rengar jumps in, slaughters his target and dies. High risk, high reward. Leave the jungle kitty alone, god dammit.


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Stexe

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Recruiter

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Placeholder to post things about Rengar based on discussions i've had today with Wav3 and some of the Live team. Currently on page 36 of 50.
Did someone say Placeholder? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3346129

Also, making a placeholder comment isn't really the best idea. Better to just post a new one so it bumps the topic and puts it back into the redtracker.


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Dunal

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Placeholder to post things about Rengar based on discussions i've had today with Wav3 and some of the Live team. Currently on page 36 of 50.
While this is offtopic (Sorry) Can you please explain the latest Karma changes, or make a new thread on them?

It seems like you're butchering AP Karma (either removing or nerfing the damage components of W2/E2) in order to improve support Karma. Not many of us are happy with that.

(Again, sorry for being offtopic -- Just want some clarification -- Scarizard is the designer around Karma, is all)


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Mixchal

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Junior Member

07-16-2013

I just do not get this changes at all. Rengar finally found his spot in the game again and you want to change him, again?

You dont like his split push with easy escape and fast dmg to buildings? What about TF, that three shots turrets with lich bane and then just ults away, or what about nidalee with AS boost and cougar form to just run away? Why are you even concerned with split push strategy anyway? Have you seen a bronze to gold league team that pulled off a great split push strategy? I did not, because it is way harder then just standart 5v5 fighting. And yes, pro players in LCS and stuff can split push but are they rly using rengar for this? No, because there are better champs for this (tf,shen, zed and like almost every champ with teleport..)

Why is rengar such a pain now with his instakilling potential? Other assasins like zed, le blanc, kass, or even fed khazix can still just instagib ppl. They are all (yes, even rengar) countered by CC and exhaust plus these champs (zed,lb,kass,khazix) even have the abilities to run away after they kill someone. When rengar goes in, he has NO ability to get out without using flash.

I agree with your xerath rework, because despite his huge dmg, he is very one dimensional about his spell rotation and build. Rengar on the other hand has a lot of paths in his skill order and even builds. You can max Q for burst, E for farming and harras, W for extra defense, you can build him as assasin, as tank if you fall behind, and you can even build him AP for the lulz. Why do you want to change that? He is not played in pro tournaments, he has low win ratio in lower elo leagues, yet you want to take away his very enjoyable kit...

On the other hand I would like to see some changes to bonetooth necklace, because it is hard to notice any stats that item offers you with more trophies.

I think there are other champions that need rework. Rengar is fine at this point, we all enjoy playing him .


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Groxxy

Senior Member

07-16-2013

This x 9000, this is what i wanted to say but not enough time to type.
He needs less changes to Q or more changes to his ult I think. it doesn't make sense for him to have a ult for an asassin but lose all his assassin burst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Rengar View Post
I'd personally like to talk to you in private if that is possible ^.^ but these are my thoughts on your current changes

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

This looks good, definitely something riot over nerfed

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

This actually sounds like a pretty big nerf, hopefully the speed of the leap stays the same but adding this and making people already know he is coming makes me worry a lot that he will be useless in teamfights just due to how easy it will be to peel him. (Don't forget this probably means people will be able to flash your jump before it connects)

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)
Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Looks like you have pretty much dumped on Q's face, this skill looks pretty pointless right now and it seems you want Rengar to be this Tanky DPS rather than assassin. It also seems you want him to be in the jungle which isn't a bad thing but I love playing him top and I feel Riot shouldn't take away his position there.

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks
Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

So pretty much with the nerfs to Q it seems we will be seeing the tanky Rengar come back with Sunfire/Visage and spilt all day. With the base damage and cooldown reduced on this ability it will allow him to clear quicker and even though the heal isn't scaled on health it will still heal more than it would with health scaling if you don't only stack health but build resistances.

The change from Armor/MR to damage reduction from AD sounds a little troublesome, you have totally taken out his MR buff for nothing if you want to get rid of these free defensive stats maybe make it like takes 5% reduced dmg? It kind of sounds broken so you could always mess around with the numbers.

Another problem that arises with this buff to W is the return of AP rengar. If you reduce this abilities cooldown and buff its base damage, while nerfing his Q all leads to the reason to just play AP again. The only thing I'm unsure of is how you plan on giving the damage on ferocity spells, will it do more dmg than W if im maxing it first? If not that just seems really weird and wouldn't make the "ferocity bonus" feel right.

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Once Again with these buffs towards his base damages on his E and W it seems you guys want him to return to his tanky state? Now rather than Rengar sniping off an opponent he seems to be one who roots them up deals a bit of damage and allows his team to clean it up.

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt

I don't get the reason you add this, if you are already nerfing his huge burst why is there a reason to make him so noticeable to others? This completely ruins the most fun thing about him being a sneaky champion who scares the **** out of people. At the moment it feels this ability is going to be more used to scout people out with its low cooldown and more to just scare people off rather than using it to initiate onto someone. The reason this isn't a problem with nocturne is because his is a global darkness making everyone be scared, also his range to leap is far larger than Rengar's making it so he still can connect his gank before the enemies flee far. With Rengar you only have to get worried if you see a symbol on your head, taking away his global fear to other lanes and making it really easy to just play passive till the symbol goes away.




Over all thoughts -
Riot seems to make no sense with Rengar, at first he was this crazy AP nuker, once that was nerfed he became a tanky spilt pusher, than once that got nerfed he was unseen for a long time. At the moment Rengar is coming back into play slowly because people finally found out they can just build him full assassin. I was totally fine with this because this was how riot wanted Rengar to be played. And now with these changes it seems like you guys think assassin is to broken on him so your changing him back to this tanky champion. I personally hate these changes as a Rengar main as it totally kills his playstyle and pretty much makes him this new champion. With these changes I feel Rengar will have a lot of problems trying to fight in teamfights as he is really easy to peel if he doesn't finish off an opponent with his first leap. With the current changes Rengar seems to now be a big lane bully with increased base damage on his W and his E. He will return to maxing E or W and now with scaling damage on ferocity will just spam W in lane to heal from it. His laning will be godlike and he will just push top non stop. There is no point of him trying to roam because people will easily walk away. His ult will be used to dominate top harder, by either running away or by 2v1ing while waiting for your ferocity to recharge in ult. The thing is you wish to make him a champion who is a sustained fighter, but the problem with that is he only has 1 leap out in the open and is melee. Not a lot of melee fighters are viable at the moment because they are so easily pealed, it really saddens me you make his ult visible to all and I truly believe it will be the one of the most useless ults compared to what it is used for now.

If you wish to continue with these ult changes I beg that you atleast give everyone the icon/ sound so it isn't so obvious where Rengar is going.

I would really like to help you guys out with these changes, so if you would like to talk more and get into detail (numbers, etc) my ign is Only Rengar, I've sent both of you requests and hope I can contact you guys!

Not everything might make sense because I'm sort of just ranting and I just woke up but oh well =)