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A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Troy242621

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Pawstruck:
No offense, but it really doesn't sound like you guys know which direction Rengar should be taken in, or even where you personally want to take him. These scattershot changes reek of homogenization, and I don't like it at all. Making him more of a duelist? Taking away his ability to gib people?

...you guys do realize the ridiculous damage Zed, Kha'zix, and even Talon can do in 2-3 seconds, right? The amount that Rengar's double-Q does just doesn't feel OP to me. /shrug

You need to give him better sticking power if you want to lower his damage but keep his "HOLY SHT" feel when he jumps on someone. He has no escape, no gap closer (without brush) and no real defenses. If his damage is lowered, he needs to be compensated... but this is the kind of whack-a-mole balance that I find incredibly uncreative. Why not put some effort into finding a way to make Ferocity choices interesting? (coughEmpoweredBolaStrikecough)



I wonder if a physical-shield version of the Maw of Malmortius-type shield would work for this?


I was pretty specific myself. He ought to be able to jungle. At least, I think so.


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ExoByte

Junior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Scarizard:

I'm interested in exploring a bonetooth with less AD/stats (the 5% cdr and 10 flat armor pen) and as a tool that is more aspirational for Rengar - an item that opens up and accentuates the part of Rengar's stalking/predatory gameplay instead of just letting him kill you harder. For instance, one idea Wav3 and i have been talking about is retuning his '+25 Movement Speed' all the time to '+X% Movement Speed in Brush' - would the combination of that passive alongside the Leap Range increase or others like it make you more effective at lane-ganking? Would you want to take care to fight in the jungle instead of in the lanes? The item would still have enough stats to be worth a slot imo, but the main interest i have is with the effects and if we have an opportunity to take something that is currently a 'win-more' item and turn it into something unique for his play experience overall.


What if the whole thing helped him in the brush/while unseen predator is up?
  • +15 Armor Pen/10% CDR while Unseen Predator is up
  • +X move speed w/ Unseen
  • (Leap already tied to Unseen)
  • his max level is already cool, but maybe he becomes the BRUSH MASTER: Nearby enemies in the brush gain no concealment, and Rengar drains 10 move speed and attack speed from those enemies


Basically he becomes Bane of the Brush
"Oh, you think brush is your ally, but you merely adopted the tall grass. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was no longer a kitten. By then, it was nothing to me but blinding! The shadows betray you, because they belong to me!"


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HongWeiLo

Senior Member

07-16-2013

"Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt"

So let me get this straight...you want the enemy team to have a general idea where the invisible Assassin is...who will become visible as he leaps, making him immediately vulnerable to CC and easier to flash away from?

Yeah. I like taking the surprise out of surprise. It's too bad deep map warding didn't warn anyone that he was running through the jungle and suddenly disappeared.

Please make these changes it would appear you have all of the information you need to butcher this champion.

Also please make it so his abilities cost HP but refund mana if they kill a minion or hero. I'm always running out of mana on this guy.


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xethik

Senior Member

07-16-2013

One thing that has had me a bit worried since the announcement to make all Ferocity abilities scale off level rather than scale (which I totally like as a concept) is that will an empowered X do less damage than the non-empowered version if I am ranking it? For example, if I have two points in Q at level 3 (generally a bad idea, but we'll ignore that), will my non-empowered Savagery do more damage than an Empowered Savagery before the attack speed is taken into account? If so, that just feels wrong.

I do want Rengar to focus on short-term based decisions on what ability to use empowered regardless of what he ranks, while Kha'zix should be the picking long-term empowering of his abilities, regardless of what he ranks. And right now, Rengar is too swayed by his long term decision of "what am I putting points into?" for that to be the case, so I like where this is going. I just want to be sure it feels right.

I guess the easiest way to deal with this is to have his empowered abilities scale by a bit more from levels 1-9 than 10-18, so the abilities stay on or just ahead of the curve of "what am I ranking?" This could cause problems with his burst early, even more so than now, where players can max his W/E for survivability or harass but get the burst as if Q was maxed upon hitting 5 empower (an extra 120 damage at level 9 than on live before the number nerfs go through, but I hope you get the idea). I assume you guys have already taken this into account, but I would love to hear design thoughts regarding this and how you plan on handling it.

One thing mentioned was that Bonetooth giving a movespeed buff while in brush. I was thinking something along the same lines yesterday, but obviously a bit different. This also takes a bit from Kha'zix, maybe in a good way. What if the delay on Thrill of the Hunt was based on whether or not you were in a brush or not, or better yet, whether the enemy had vision of you when you activated it. on top of this, what if movespeed was increased by a good percentage more when Rengar was in brushes during Thrill of the Hunt? Obviously these can be evaluated separately, but they focus on the same goal: making brushes matter for Rengar even during his ultimate. It seems odd that during his ultimate, Rengar practically ignores brushes or may even avoid them due to pink wards being more likely there. Obviously his ult is meant to give him flexibility when away from brushes, but it would seem logical that they would still add some benefit, especially on a champ that focuses on them.

Of course, those changes would further enhance splitpushing issues. Unless the enemies warded brushes/jungle near where he was pushing, it would be easy for him to slip undetected for a split second and then vanish, just like now. It would feel crappy in general, but perhaps his movespeed buff can be Vayne/Volibear-esque: only activates or is larger when moving towards enemies rather than away.

Just some ideas.

EDIT:
Regarding the Thrill of the Hunt changes. I'm fine with a global voice over. What I don't like is the icons. How about, if anything, the icon is only over players Rengar can leap onto from his current position while in the ultimate? Some caveats here or there, but essentially... if you want to defend your carry, you can spread out around him or her and know the direction Rengar is coming from and his relative position. If a team is split into three parts, it shouldn't be immediately obvious which part he is going for. It makes a Rengar think of more clever pathing. Essentially, everyone but your primary target has a mini-oracles on them. My two cents here.


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Daegon

Junior Member

07-16-2013

To start off I love the kitty cat, and I think in order to make jungle Rengar a more viable thing would be to make him able to control objectives similar to the style of Shyvana.

Savagery-You could also do a possible % current health/missing health on non-empowered/empowered Savagery similar to Elise this would allow for buff control and opposing teams to be wary when attempting a low health baron or dragon. This would also allow a decent lane but not one that's super broken.

Battle Roar -could possibly cause an aoe mr/armor shred while empowered forcing you to use your abilities based on the teamfight situation.

Bola Strike -Lower base damage and slightly longer range

Thrill of the Hunt -Changes proposed by the op seems pretty good.


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I3ig Al

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I rarely if ever post on the forums, and I know this post is probably going to be lost in the avalanche of traffic coming from SurrenderAt20, but Rengar was the first champion I ever felt like "this is awesome and he is definitely going to be my main" and I really miss playing him.

I loved the dueling and one on one fights with him. I really enjoyed the bush jumps and punishing enemies for not paying attention to where they were standing. I actually liked jungling because I could leap out and snare and still do some damage.

I hated having infinite sustain, it wasn't fair and I always felt bad when the other guy complained. It needed to be nerfed for sure. HOWEVER, I also hated jungling after the nerf, because I would have to use all my ports and STILL have to base after getting buffs.

The thing I hate most about the current Rengar is that you either completely stomp your lane or you get **** all over and have to play meatshield aura bot the rest of the game because you can't do enough damage to oneshot someone.

I really like the current in testing changes, it would bring rengar back almost to release form.


Specifically to the Bonetooth Necklace, Yes I really want it to be more than a BF Sword.

The only thing I can really suggest right now is instead of giving bonus movespeed all the time at 6 trophies, it should maybe give more bonus MS, but only in bushes, like Nidalee passive. that might be too OP and snowbally, but it's all I can think of right now. I will come back with more ideas later.


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Tonric

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I think one of the biggest, healthiest changes that can be made to rengar would be to add a longer, global cooldown to his ferocity refreshes.

See, I get it's a design conundrum: Rengar needs to use abilities to hit five stacks, but if Rengar ever wants to use the ability he just used to stack to five, he'd have to wait for that cooldown to be up, thereby reducing his tactics as he can only really choose to ferocity two abilities. Thus, he's been given a cooldown reset, such that he can double tap Q/W/E depending on how he maxed his abilities.

But I think a lot of the toxicity in Rengar is built into that specific clause. The three examples of triple Q, double W plus DFG, and Max E in lane, double tap E win lane are all reliant on that cooldown reset. And so, if a 1-2 second GCD was added to the refresh, a la Akali R, Sona, Udyr, I think we get away from stupid instagib combos, while still preserving the tactics of the situation.

I also think it'd have to be a finely tuned number. 1 second might be two short (you're AA cancelling with the Q anyway, so you'd just be slowing down the triple Q by that flat one second) but two seconds might be too long (If it's a GCD, then I can't E someone chasing me and heal instantly, I have to wait 2 seconds and hope Lee Sin misses his Q, or whatever.


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2xHero

Recruiter

07-16-2013

Just a few random comments and answers to some of the suggestions and questions.

I do like jungle Rengar and see his playstyle suitable for jungling. His ganks feel very powerful with good damage and CC. However, his sustain is horrible, especially with his pitifully low HP regen (you know, the lowest HP regen in the entire game). I think some sort of {physical} damage reduction, perhaps on Battle Roar, would be appropriate and help out his jungling a lot.

I think a physical damage reduction, instead of raw defensive stats, is really appropriate for his battle roar. This would help him keep his health up in the jungle and makes sense thematically since Kha'zix, a physical damage dealer, is his nemesis.

The global VO on Thrill of the Hunt would be great.

Some random thoughts on the Bonetooth Necklace... I like the +%MS in brush. I find that it works well with his predator theme and helps him use Unseen Predator more easily. I also like the suggestions someone had of having it upgrade from a Machete. Maybe try having Battle Roar remove slows would be a good bonus? Increasing the sight range on Thrill of the Hunt? Savagery does a mini-stun or mini-blind against a target with higher health than you but instead deals bonus damage to a target with lower health than you? Some sort of deployed trap would be cool, too, but I don't see where that could fit except as an active on the Bonetooth Necklace.

Overall, I find Rengar's low health regen to be extremely crippling to his playstyle and itemization. In lane, it basically forces you to buy lots of health potions and all-in your opponent repeatedly or spam Bola Strike. Trading really isn't an option at all. Throughout the game, you pretty much have to buy lots of lifesteal, health potions, and sometimes Spirit Visage. It's really irritating that it takes 5 seconds for a melee champion to recover from one 6-damage minion attack. Fortunately, lifesteal items are some of the best items on him anyway, but it is still frustrating, especially early game and in the jungle.


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Beckonfour

Member

07-16-2013

[QUOTE=Scarizard;39813745]Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar......./QUOTE]


Ok so Here is my 2 Cents on Rengar. I think first you changing numbers but I personally really don't think it address the issues with his kit. If you deconstruct the champion all the ability's make so much sense a sign of great character design including the passive but to me its the refreshing ability that seems give everything and in the end just make everything alot more difficult.

The refresh seems to be a way of giving rangar a extra bonus when he needs it based on the situation. The extra damage, tanky,sustain or CC but these option can be presented without having the general issues with the refreshes. What I present is the idea that on hitting the 5 stacks rengar just Gains 1 extra effect that goes along side the normal ability cast. Abit like Karma with her Ult proc

So Kit wise:

Q- "Activated Effect" High Damage ability that rewards the player with temp damage increase for X sec after.

W - "Aoe Activiate Effect" (Range 300-400) AoE Debuff and subtain. The debuff will help rengar live / offer some extra to the team fight but should be make viable with an icon over heads of thos effected by it. Heal should be based on % Missing health of target hit.

I think debuff fixed because it doesn't make him tanker.. if your not hit and rewards / punishes bad position but at the same time the Roar.. is more like shouting down your enemy why making your self more pumped. The heal aspect is that Rengar will use this at the start of a fight and having him heal straight away all the damage dealt seems weird. But during a longer fight so he can use the ability again it becomes stronger granting him sustain. In the jungle wont mean you just use when the minons are low to gain the best amount of healing. I think this ability is could be balanced around hitting 3 as most camps have 3 minons and in a team fight 3 champs is a good number that will be around the tank.

E- "Skill Shot" (Range 600-700) The E work the same as same as the empowered ability

Bola Strike initially snares his target for 1 second. The slow is then applied in full after the 1 second, and decays over the remaining 1.5 seconds.

Landing a skill shot as u jump straight in isn't a problem but chasing should have it own rewards and his kit was lacking "feeling of the player is awesome." The increase range to make up for it being a skill shot tho the slow may need changing as. maybe 0.5 sec slow after. Also removing the empowered ability choice lowers the skill cap abit so adding this will balance more out.

R- I love all the change you have but forward and really think with them it be in a better place.

Empowered ability - Il be honstest I think this should be here but not 100% sold on what it should be. I needs to be a cash in that just does that little be extra. and with the strong CC coming from the jungle, tanky hard engage I like the idea of a little cc. maybe let he lets out his extra ability he does another little roar that's a silence for 0.5 sec. or fear but then I think of fiddle and my head hurts.

Or just a straight up damage increasing effect ether way the ability just give that extra something on his way in and during fights that makes up for the way his skills are balanced. Also a cool thing is that the emproved effect is tied to the type of Q,W,E is used. Q is a straight click, W is AoE, and E is skill shot so having the silence proc as aoe would be the best and with the skill shot the Silence stops casting why Snared. They all add something but choosing what to use is the sign of a great Rengar player.

Well thats my 2secs on the matter
GL HF GG x.x


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Groxxy

Recruiter

07-16-2013

Is it just me or does it sound like it'll just we'll just have more odd cases where you don't be using your Q anymore because the W and E give you more utility and damage?

Right now I don't think Rengar can afford not having that burst damage on his Q.

Then he's just the awkward roar cat he was after he was released.

I understand the issue that he can't have the burst and the stealth ult and that's why he's in his current state but I think Its a deeper issue than this. Unfortunately somethings gonna have to get gutted from his kit. But His burst isn't something that should be imo.