A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rango

Junior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atyres View Post
Not a big fan of letting the enemy know, but then again I was never a fan of Warwick letting the enemy know as well.
Never mind that this is different from Rengar's mechanics, Warwick's E isn't used to gank. It's meant to be an execute aid; a weakened enemy won't be able to outrun a bloodthirsty wolfman that has constant vision of his target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xKHORNExLORD420 View Post
All I know about rengar is that he can 100-0 anyone pre 30 minutes in mere moments and a bronze scrub I know carried from plat to bronze with Rengoo in under a month.
Hey now, I got there with Lulu too!

*Ahem.*

First off, let me just say that I have an eternal respect for the people at Riot whose job is to read community feedback and evaluate and implement the balance changes necessary to this game. I got here after I read through all the forum posts, and I can't say "thank you" enough times for even considering this proposition. It's a huge pain when posts contain negative/nonconstructive criticism, things irrelevant to the topic of the thread, and ideas that are constantly repeated but must be read regardless to ensure that no new unique idea was overlooked.

To whomever this may concern, I hope you will take some of what I have to say into consideration. This is coming from an avid Rengar player, and someone with both some ideas I came through my own intuition and the enlightenment of fellow posters in this same thread.

Allow me to start with my own ideas. I believe the thing that needs to be changed the most is Rengar's W. By itself, it is a weak ability that has no synergy with the Pridestalker's kit in terms of theme or gameplay. It should get some sort of offensive stat attached to it that isn't the meager damage it currently does. A literal fear was the first thought I had, but perhaps something like an indirect offense such as reducing the damage done by enemy units around Rengar would suffice.

Make the Bonetooth Necklace more slot-efficient. Since I've gotten used to playing Rengar, I've made the habit of getting the item early on. It's pretty good late-game by itself, as it gives the same bonus AD as a B.F. sword does for 800 gold. The intended bonuses I am suppose to get from the item, however, become unreliable if I am not able to acquire them AND hold on to them. As other people have mentioned, perhaps tweaking it to be something like Eleisa's Miracle could work. That would solve the uneasy feeling I have when I get a "full" build that includes the Bonetooth yet feel slightly weaker for deciding to keep it in my inventory, whether I have the trophy bonuses or not. I wouldn't mind making the bonuses more permanent as well, as in: not losing them even if Rengar falls below the milestone needed to get those bonuses. And maybe make it so that you only get trophies on kill, to make it fair. It doesn't seem to unreasonable, since Darius has a similar mechanic with his ultimate that only sees extra utility from scoring the killing blow. Someone else in the thread had the brilliant idea of making it so that instead of just on kill or assist, have a mechanic similar to Thresh's souls where you have to pick up the trophies from the bodies of slain champions. "Cashing in" on trophies would also make sense too, since you shouldn't really be holding the many different limbs of your game when that would only hinder your capacity to get more trophies of future encounters with prey. I hope that at least some of these ideas get through. Just please don't make the necklace build from a machete or jungle item, I like when a champion isn't forced into a particular role, and doing that would just encourage Rengars to jungle more than Top.

I'm not sure if it's asking for too much, but could you increase the range of Rengar's passive leap by 50? Maybe 25, even? Reason for asking is because the few times I play Rengar in the jungle, it feels really difficult to gank mid-lane unless I have 5 ferocity ready with empowered E, and it's super unsatisfying when I am barely unable to jump to the minions in mid-lane due to how far away the mid-lane brushes are from the minion's path.

If you're going to make it so that using ultimate notifies enemy champions of Rengar's ult usage/presence, can you reduce the initial fade timer down to .5 seconds, or .75 if half a second is too fast? It would make the initiation easier and still allow for counterplay if Rengar tries to use it as an escape tool. I understand that it's not fair how Rengar gets to lane-gank people with absolutely no warning or counterplay aside from lightning fast reflexes or unorthodox ward placements, but until you release the exact figures you have to make it so that using Rengar's ultimate for the intended purpose of hunting prey feels more smooth, somehow.

As for the other proposed changes, I don't quite understand where you're going or what you're doing with them. Buffing his E will just encourage Rengar to max out his E even more than he already does, as is the case in most matchups in top-lane.

If you intend to keep the defensive steroid of his W, please don't get rid of the little defense against magic attacks it has left. Rengar, at the moment, takes a lot of punish for trying to do his job of assassinating a high-priority target by getting focused or crowd-controlled. If you must go this path, I'd suggest making the duration longer or allowing both Ws' defensive stat increases to stack on one-another. Adjust the numbers if you have to, but don't take away from an ability that already got pounded into the ground. Giving Rengar tenacity on W, be it normal or only empowered, might give him the edge he needs to focus on killing his intended target. Not sure if you'd be up for that, but it's just a suggestion.

Taking away from normal Q would make his jungle worse than it already is, forget what effects it would have on his mid-late game dueling. Since Rengar is suppose to be an assassin, I'd say you'd be better off with something else. The ability icon has the victim teared open and bleeding, perhaps some sort of a bleed effect would be appropriate? Or if not that, how about a healing reduction or a damage amplifier of sorts? Or if the attack speed must go and not be replaced with any normal utility, how about bonus damage to minions and/or monsters?

As for some other ideas I've read in this thread that I really liked, how about making it so that Rengar can actually use his ult to jump into nearby brushes? This would allow Rengar some form of tactical retreat if he's not able to get the initial leap.

Or how about getting rid of the double-cast? I would not mind trading near-instant recasts of an ability for an even stronger version of the ability. I'm sure you can get creative with this, but have it so like empowered E can pacify targets in addition to just rooting, empowered W would mark targets and setting off said mark does bonus damage, and so on. As it stands, I feel like the empowered versions of Rengar's abilities are really uncreative and only feel rewarding because of the damage or necessary sustain. W has a heal, Q is a stronger damage nuke and stronger attack speed increase, and E is an ensnare as opposed to an already strong movement-impair. Okay, I guess...? I think you get the idea.

Oh, speaking of sustain, I forgot about Rengar's. I'm begging you, for the love of all that's mighty, increase it! It is really bothersome that a fierce primal hunter who is constantly on the hunt not only has the lowest base health regeneration, but the lowest growth in the same department too! I'm not asking you to make him into an undying tank, but please make it so that he can actually sustain himself through something aside from lifesteal or empowered W.

That's all I have. I'm sorry if this was a chore to read through, but I highly appreciate it!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Troy242621

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Let me first start off by saying, Rengar is my favorite champion. I absolutely love his style, and it looks like Riot is leaving his style in-tact, which I couldn't be happier about. Onto my opinions here, and I'll keep'em brief and logical.

Rengar having a VO when he ults
This, thematically, makes a lot of sense. Rengar's ultimate is THRILL of the hunt. He has a battle roar. It fits his style to exhibit a loud roar of this nature when he goes on the prowl. From a balance standpoint, I know a lot of other Rengar fans will disagree,...But I'm okay with it. Them knowing you're ulting, from a jungle standpoint, doesn't help them much if you're barreling towards them , getting ready to pounce. However, it DOES add counterplay. In doing this, Riot will be able to give him more strength in other places in his kit, like his MS buff on his ultimate, a perfect compensation for this preemptive warning given to the enemies. Now, he can STILL gank with it, but it's not as unfair to be pounced on like that. The "I couldn't have done anything to stop that," moments really do suck, at least I'd assume. So, allinall, it makes a lot of sense. I'm happy with these changes.

Jungle Rengar
THIS is my main point. PLEASE. PLEASE RIOT. I beg of you. MAKE JUNGLE RENGAR VIABLE AGAIN. I cannot beg and plead enough for this. I'll post every day if I need to, I really want Rengar to be a viable jungler. I'v talked to SEVERAL other Rengar fans, and a majority agree, they want to jungle the cat, too. Please Riot, test Rengar as a jungler. If changes need to be made to transfer power to help his jungling, so be it, but he IS a jungler after all. I'll add a few specific points on WHY he doesn't work in the jungle.

1. Rengar is a snowballer and is strong early game. In the jungle, he can't capitalize on it nearly as much. Apparently, you're aiming to make him less snow-bally. So, we're moving on.

2. Rengar's pre-6 ganks are terrible, making him unable to snowball early, which he MUST do. He CAN'T get into mid lane whatsoever unless they're stupidly overextended and his top/bot ganks are very questionable. This is because of two factors. One, his burst isn't that great, because it has a wasted stat, his attack speed boost. It really doesn't help, because an attack speed boost implies you'll get more than 2-3 autoattacks off during a gank regardless. You can't make them sit still to enjoy your AS boost without your Ebola's snare, which if you use, you lose the damage nuke. It's a lose lose situation for him. Your laners may provide the CC (Which restricts when he can be picked), but then you're faced with a NEW problem to restrict him even further. Second, if the laners simply shy away from the jungle bush, you're EVEN MORE limited in options pre-6. Now, you can't gank mid lane, and must do an in-lane gank top or bot lane. This is somewhat alleviated by leaping to an enemy minion then performing the gank, but that's ONLY if the lane is pushed perfectly so that their minions are within leap range, the bush isn't warded AND the enemy is reasonably close to the minion. Until level 6, realistically, that's your only three options. Lane gank top, lane gank bot, clear the jungle until level 6. That's not enough.

3. That's too restrictive for someone who MUST get an early kill to secure a decent mid/late game. Here's why THAT'S the case. The jungle gives next to no gold, and assassins happen to need a LOT of gold to do their job. So, Rengar MUST gank. This, compounded with the fact that he's strong early game but can't use it in the jungle as effectively AND he can only do in-lane ganks top or in-lane ganks bot before level 6, means that he HAS TO GET a gank off before level six, but has EXTREMELY limited means of pulling off said gank. If he simply clears to level 6, he's already VERY behind everyone else and will have a tough time ganking without a tanky CC lanes. Even then, it's iffy. He can do it, but that leads me to my final point.

4. Why jungle Rengar? You'v successfully defeated every single purpose in using him. In the jungle,...He's a snowballer that can't snowball, he's an early game champion that can't assassinate until level 6, and he's an assassin, meaning he's VERY gold hungry, and in the jungle he has very LITTLE gold without ganks, that which he cannot likely preform. Even if he does which is almost absurd at this point due to how many factors are working against him, it's still less helpful than a tanky jungler who gives the kills to their laner to snowball them, as tanks require substantially less gold to perform their job. After a kill, he's still not going to snowball like Rengar would in-lane, because in the jungle, he starts off behind. This jungle assassin budget deficit goes double for Rengar, who all-ins the enemy Carry then dies successfully, or dies and is useless to the team because he failed. In lane, he gets more guaranteed gold AND has a higher kill potential early game that he can snowball off from. Jungle Rengar just doesn't have that. In fact, he's downright undesirable from a jungle standpoint right now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thirdnutblind

Senior Member

07-16-2013

I'm no Rengar player but I've played against him enough times that I feel my 2 cents isn't totally useless.

I think you ought to consider adding some tenacity to Rengar's kit, perhaps as a reward from Bonetooth stacks, or if the ultimate is ever reworked as a passive to it. This would make all of his roles (carry-diver, pusher, ganker) more effective and more rewarding, without giving him stats that are WTFWHEREDIDMYFACEGO-esque. Passive tenacity would keep him slightly more relevant in a fight without bushes while not creating a situation in which the opponent feels his play is uncounterable.

And something about shaking off CC just seems so natural to a hunter/predator. Ask Irelia.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Darklightning

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.
Okay, maybe I like gameplay that is toxic to the game, but I like the idea of being able to sneak into a team that didn't bother to buy oracles and instagib their high damage output. If the team is playing effectively and messes up by failing to buy a oracle to protect their damage output I should be able to finish off their carry be it AP or AD before they can respond. I don't like this mentality of "no counter so it's toxic".

Some champions should be uncountable at a certain point if the enemy team has failed to meet certain criteria. That criteria may be, focus Rengar so he doesn't get fed, buy Oracles, by Zonya's... it shouldn't be make Rengar take 5 seconds to take out someone so that the whole team can protect the one person that has done the best. That way if I have done the very best in the game as Rengar I should be able to eliminate their very best. I might die, or if I'm very skilled I may get away.

Quote:
So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?
I like the idea of him being a jungler where his early game isn't so great, so that (as mentioned above) if he his heavily counter-jungled his effect won't be as strong mid game and you can win late game by just removing key threats.

Quote:
-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target
I will confess the defensive bonus doesn't feel significant. I think because you don't give a big enough visual que. I hate seeing "situationally more powerful" this reads as high skill cap that few can perfect, or untapped power that results in few playing him. "Which eventually becomes lets remake him again," Riot.

Quote:
-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'
Oracle range was shrunk. If you do this, from the opposing side, I want to make sure that range leap gives the enemy at least a half second warning (unless flash is used) before I can jump on my enemy. Though more visible effects are always better than raw stats... except for movement speed. That is a very visible effect. I love being able to get places and hate slow moving champions that are assassin types in nature. Maybe make it give bursts of speed after a spell? IDK thinking outloud.


Quote:
These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.
Please don't ignore me just because you notice I haven't worked my way into Diamond or don't play Rengar a lot. I loved him at release then all of the sudden he was so much harder to play with the nerfs.

Quote:
Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!

Here are the changes (Without numbers, as they are subject to change/tuning as always) that we've been testing so far:

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)

Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks

Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt
I am not a fan of the beginning of the leap visibility in combination with the ULT warning. One or the other. You're allowing for too much counterplay without an Oracle's or Pink ward. Make them itemize against his ULT.

Your removal of attack speed has made me immediately dislike your changes. I love the high attack speed of ripping into towers or enemies. It feels like how I always imagined Warwick playing with his Ultimate. "I see this as being the whole lets give the enemy team time to wipe out the guy who can actually threaten our one good player."

You're trying to throw some damage and extra utility into Bola Strike to make up for the damage drop in what I see as being the most fun part of Rengar (ripping into the enemy). I see this getting nerfed eventually with the excuse that now he has no reason to engage on the enemy in lane as he can safely farm from a distance. Or you'll complain that he isn't meant to be used as a support when that starts happening because he can harass strongly.

Why are you getting rid of my Magic resistance?! Seriously, I can't think of how many times that Syndra got ungodly fed by Mid and bot and I was able to shut her down before her combo burst me to pieces.

I played against Rengar as Lux twice this week. Guess what. Not super upset. I heard the Ult activate backed up and snared on reveal. Sure I lost half health but I didn't die before my team took him out. Actually wait, nope didn't die at all there, either time. If the team has CC and hears the ult they'll group and defend against it. That simple. His Ult is the most toxic because there is no audible warning and he is easy to take out if you track him down.

I really don't see the need to alter him much. In other words, you haven't sold me on the need.

Quote:
Adding on the fact that he is currently a long duration true stealth character with burst(a play pattern that is not really healthy for the game, eg pre-rework Evelynn...), we feel that Rengar exacerbates this problem with his incredible target selection through his ultimate. Thus an already toxic play pattern becomes even more toxic and further fuels the "feast or famine" scenario that live Rengar currently faces. If Rengar is ahead, he becomes a god who can insta-gib and knife-cat any enemy of his choosing. If Rengar is behind he feels incredibly useless in team fights because even though he can choose his target to go on, his only purpose as an all in melee "assassin" cannot be fulfilled.

The other problem that exists is in the fact that Rengar always has the backup option of split pushing with a true stealth escape tool and attack speed steroid to crush buildings. This pattern is NOT something we want to promote but inevitably exists due to the nature of his kit. Split pushing is a viable strategy and IT IS OK for Rengar to split push, but he should not be able to abuse his ultimate so easily to escape the stickiest of situations WHILST having his amazing structure killing potential.
First of all, Oracles and/or Pink Ward... second... Oracles and/or Pink Ward. You changed Oracles to not be lost on death. I don't care if a Rengar gets away from one person with his Ult. That's just another Singed. If you get enough people on him you take him out before he cloaks. If you're really that concerned about that, make it so that he can't cloak if in the presence of enemy champion vision. I feel that fits the character and keeps him from getting away if he didn't bother to ward.

Insta-gib only happens because there isn't an audible warning on the ULT. Fix that and see what happens to Rengar.

tl;dr I'm tired of the no counterplay arguements used for remakes. Where you then remake the champion with loads of counterplay where he is no fun to play because now the enemy doesn't even need to buy items (or increase his skill level so no one plays him). I'm fine with an assassin who goes in and takes out one player and potentially dies. Just let them have warning its coming so they can position the team to take him out afterwards or kill him if they had the foresight to buy pink wards / Oracles.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Splendid Cake

Senior Member

07-16-2013

When you say it reduces the damage of basic attacks, does this include minions or is it just champion basic attacks?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Im so bad yuck

Senior Member

07-16-2013

I think some of the proposed changes below would make Rengar more viable without making him either extremely overpowered or instagibbing as he is. Please note that I wouldn't be giving most damage-connected numbers since it's not my business.

Unseen Predator:
Every 10 seconds, Rengar's next basic attack will cause him to leap to his target. Entering the bush or stealth resets the cooldown.

Basically it's to make sure Rengar can actually go around being kited hard while not making him abuse the case.

Savagery: Working as proposed by Riot with a jungle variation:
IF Savagery is used on a monster, it's cooldown is reduced to one second but it grants a debuff that makes Savagery unable to generate ferocity for (Q's cooldown). The debuff will not prolong itself with multiple jungle usages. If used on a non-monster, Savagery enters a shortened cooldown mode (reset when debuff ends).

Allowing a faster clear without making Q too strong.

Battle Roar: Leaving the damage component as it is, I've been considering if this would be it:

Rengar roars, causing his enemies to be marked, increasing damage taken. Every 1.5 seconds, the mark checks if the enemy was combating with Rengar and if he was not, Rengar's damage is further increased versus this target by a percentage.

Since his Battle Roar is not to keep his free defensive benefits and is supposed to make you fight, why not make it actually benefit Rengar for both skirmishes and all-ins?

Bola Strike: Reducing base damage and increasing ratio would keep it in line with other abilities while increasing it's damage will just cause all Rengars to max this ability first.

Thrill of the Hunt: Riot's changes are cool IF his ultimate will not give a personal warning, since a global one would be better. With a personal warning this makes Rengar's ultimate more likely to be used as an escape - not as an all-in facemelt as it is right now on live.

Proposed Ferocity changes if the current ones don't really work out:

Savagery: Additionally resets Unseen Predator's cooldown.

Battle Roar: Rengar strikes fear with his fierce roar, fearing every damaged enemy for a very short duration (could be as short as 0.3 seconds, just to give him some real teamfight presence aside from being a carry destroyer.

Bola Strike - KICK:
Rengar leaps onto his target instead, knocking it down for 1-1.5 seconds, effectively stunning it.

I know granting all the changes would make him a powerhouse so it's just pure brainstorming in case you guys run out of ideas !


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wispilicus

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Rengar is one of my favorite champs, so I would like to put in my 2 cents. Firstly is that his jungle most definitely needs a buff, everytime i go in there i end up chugging all my pots before my first clear, and cant even gank because im so low.

His bonetooth is good, and I usually buy it when i can get it early enough, but i think of it more like a gp5 item, good to hang on to for a while, but when my build fills up, i will sell it for another dps item (bork, hydra, w/e i havnt bought yet). So while it is good, even with max stacks, it doesn't feel like i should keep it over a 3k+ item later on.

His top lane is pretty strong imo, the only ppl that give me problems as rengar are the really tanky champs that build big armor items right away to negate a lot of my dmg (j4, nasus, malph,shen, building wardens mail into a randuins or something), or tricky champs like lee sin who can disengage and sustain better than me with a vamp scepter. Any champ even remotely squishy will just be added to my killing spree, its great.

I definitely feel his ult could use a change tho, When u get high cdr on rengar like i do, his ult cd is ridiculously low for how good it is. I can just wait around river or in a bush in their jungle, and as soon as my ult is up i pop it, see who is alone (or who i can instagib and just walk away from the other guy), and do my work. Go to a jungle camp, heal to full, then my ulti is up again to start prowling again. If i use my ult, and find that the enemy team isnt even in range, or are clumped together in a big grp and i have to back off, its not even a big deal, cause 50 seconds later i will have it up again.

And pushing towers.... omagawd. Get hydra and just push top or bot all day, if they dont send a tank or a few squishes to deal with me, bye bye tower. Oh you caught me out of position did you, I will just ulti, wait for everyone to separate trying to find where im going, and instagib some1 who walked off by their lonesome. Its like the only counterplay is vision wards all over the place, because just having oracles isnt enough considering that most champs with an oracles against an even remotely fed rengar are just gonna die.

So if you guys are going to buff him, be very careful, because he is already really strong in a lot of ways.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -
Quote:
-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?
Make his Q put a mark on jungle creeps that makes them take more damage or something to that effect

Quote:
-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target
Good idea, you should do that, like last season when Armor and MR was important. Right now HP is the meta. And with Vayne being the only unnerfed ADC (More played) Even HP doesn't work. CC is more the meta these days, so how about an AOE fear? Too much? Alright then forget the Resistance just put the % HP back on. Have the % be based off of Level.

Quote:
-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'
Actives are the coolest. For example, make it so you can leap at any time by activating it. Like, honestly, if you haven't thought of that, you're thinking too hard about it. Simple is better.

Quote:
These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.

Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!

Here are the changes (Without numbers, as they are subject to change/tuning as always) that we've been testing so far:
Quote:
General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased
I love the idea of having his HP go up like the rest of champions in this game. If you're going to make his base HP better, and not take the % heal back on his W, you're going to have to make the Heal on his W worth the channel that stops the AA.

Quote:
Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap
Good nerf for the buffs. If you give, you have to take.

Quote:
Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)
More damage on Jungle creeps (True damage seems like a Nunu concept in the jungle these days). And might I suggestion a "Passive+Q" mix here. If you jump out of a brush with Q ready, you should be rewarded with the Attack Speed buff or EVEN just more damage on the Q. This will reward players for their skills.

Quote:
Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased
Um, okay, but how am I killing the enemy ADC now? I can't burst them down, and without the Attack Speed on the Q, what am I expected to do? I suggest not lowering the damage. In fact, if anything, it was nerfed too well in comparison to his over all damage. It's costing me a Root and a Heal for this damage I'm doing, Make it WORTH CC and make it WORTH the Heal/ArmorMR I'm losing for this Damage.

You could also just make it deal extra true damage to Jungle Creeps.

Quote:
Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks
Damage increased why? Is this Rengars Go-To Damage move now? I hope you're not expecting this to replace the damage lost on his Q. Everyone is more than willing to lose Damage on this move in replace for increased damage on his Q.

Quote:
Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
Make it heal more per level, jungeling hurts. In fact, make it so that you heal more if you hit jungle creeps. Again, simple is better. If a little child riding a bigfoot isn't afraid of Rengar, no one will be.

Quote:
Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
Are you trying to replace Q's damage with this damage increase? Like before, we'd rather have more damage on his Q than his W. This might be the same case here too. Though, it would be a good trade off, good for jungle ganks.


Quote:
Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased
This feels like you're trying to make his Q a lot weaker in replace for buffing up these other move's damage wise. But, I guess as a jungler you 'd have to pick which moves you want to level. Good ganks, or fast jungle clear. So this isn't too bad if it's for the Ferocity. But odds are, if the Ferocity Q is too low, I might not even consider it as a option to level first.


Quote:
Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt
Get rid of that Stealth Delay, and you have yourself a deal.

Here comes my greed now where I ask for something insane: Make it so it shows enemy jungle camps, or at least shows which champs are up within ult range.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Bone Tooth:

Active on Bone Tooth: Allows him to leap without being in a brush on active.

The stacks, how about something other than just killing champions. Dragon and Barron seem like good things. 3 Stacks on Dragon kills, 5 on Barron.

Tenacity, on a jungler? No way?! This needs to happen.

The item should just become part of Rengar's passive once it's fully stacked and he has a few more kills on it. And the active of the bone tooth just happens once every few seconds like a passive cooldown.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pawstruck

Senior Member

07-16-2013

No offense, but it really doesn't sound like you guys know which direction Rengar should be taken in, or even where you personally want to take him. These scattershot changes reek of homogenization, and I don't like it at all. Making him more of a duelist? Taking away his ability to gib people?

...you guys do realize the ridiculous damage Zed, Kha'zix, and even Talon can do in 2-3 seconds, right? The amount that Rengar's double-Q does just doesn't feel OP to me. /shrug

You need to give him better sticking power if you want to lower his damage but keep his "HOLY SHT" feel when he jumps on someone. He has no escape, no gap closer (without brush) and no real defenses. If his damage is lowered, he needs to be compensated... but this is the kind of whack-a-mole balance that I find incredibly uncreative. Why not put some effort into finding a way to make Ferocity choices interesting? (coughEmpoweredBolaStrikecough)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Battle Roar could grant him a shield, which would naturally scale with his own tankiness.
I wonder if a physical-shield version of the Maw of Malmortius-type shield would work for this?