A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Shimrra3

Senior Member

07-16-2013

This is definitely a necessary change, it'll work out to be like the LeBlanc changes - a kit that enforces double-casting whatever is lvl5 first is not a good kit, so you're going to kill this too. Good.


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YNewflag

Recruiter

07-16-2013

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...ack_on_rengar/

Riot If your truly care and listen to community. Go to link and read the comments. Please, PLEASE DO IT. READ AND SEE WHAT COMMUNITY THINKS, PLEASE DON'T MAKE THESE CHANGES I BEG YOU, I WANT TO KEEP PLAYING LEAGUE STOP DOING THIS TO MY FAVOURITE CHAMPIONS, FIRST KARMA/OLAF NOW RENGAR,



Read, read. Read for the love of god. Please, I litreally fckng beg you. DON'T CHANGE RENGAR, DON'T REMOVE ONLY TRUE ASSASSIN CHAMPION IN LEAGUE THAT IS PLAYABLE. Don't change him. Let him be an assassin, let him do what HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Don't ignore us, and don't say things like "he has big problems that has to be fixed, his blabla has no counter-play" no, NO. No. Don't do it dude, don't. I ****ing beg you like dog DON'T CHANGE THIS CHAMPION PLEASE DON'T DO IT


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LastEscapist

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Pray4Rengar and Shyvana.
-----

For True Karma


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt

Welcome to LoL, where you'll never have an ambush stealth mechanic, even if it's short duration.


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Relentless Rogue

Member

07-16-2013

I'm really loving this discussion; As both a Rengar player and someone that mains Nocturne, I feel like they should have a similar feel.

A global VO upon Rengar casting it seems like a great idea, he should, like Nocturne, make an inexperienced player s*** themselves when he ults.


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Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

07-16-2013

If you're going to nerf the Q damage, make it so when he leaps with his Q active it does more damage. This makes his passive more useful.


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Nehrak

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?
No. He seems adept at controlling where he is with Bola Strike and Battle Roar while waiting for a good opportunity to kill with Savagery. His ultimate is also his ace in the hole when he sees that opportunity and will use it to make certain he can kill his opponent or get the drop on one who's unwary. In the jungle his only tools are auto attacks and attack speed buffs with the occasional pitiful AoE damage. I honestly think Riot should forget about making Rengar a jungler entirely or forget about his laning entirely and make him a jungler. When you try to do both one experience or the other ends up being lackluster.

Quote:
-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target
Battle Roar is Rengar's least interesting ability. Whenever I play him it stays at rank 1 until I have nothing else to invest points in. It's damage compared to other abilities is pitiful, the heal scales on level instead of point investment (making further points not really worth it to me), and the extra defense, while nice, doesn't make enough of a difference to really notice anything. It's really only there to sustain me when I take damage and build Ferocity. I don't even think about other uses.

Quote:
-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'
I think it's fine how it is. I'm wary of putting too many mechanics on that item as it would make Rengar into a mechanics machine like Jarvan. There would be too many things to think about and too many potential sources of power. I think raw numbers is easier to balance despite being less compelling. The current way it changes Rengar is enough.



Quote:
General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased
Ok. Rengar kinda suffers from taking damage in fast fights (but does well in long harassment fights). Things like health regen and regen per level isn't really something Rengar needs if he has access to a powerful self-heal though.

Quote:
Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap
Ok. I know this is pretty frustrating because people only know Rengar is coming until he's right on top of them.

Quote:
Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)
I won't say anything until I know what goes in its place. Honestly I think Rengar should get increased damage on his auto attacks or something instead of just attack speed. Maybe he gets a bleed effect somewhat similar to Darius or Talon if he lands X number of auto attacks or something after hitting Savagery to give Rengar an incentive for him to stay on the person he's attacking instead of just trying to burst them.

Quote:
Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased
This could tie in well with an "after X amount of attacks something happens" as he has increased attack speed to help proc that effect.

Quote:
Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks
A % damage reduction from incoming physical damage makes sense to me. Rengar is supposed to be a predator that overwhelms his prey via strength and prowess. The "I am stronger" line. Having it deal damage seems weird to me. Instead of damage it should give a debuff of some kind. Maybe something that procs when Rengar auto attacks that target even if it's just the same amount of damage. When Rengar roars, it would make a bit of feeling where the enemy player says "oh **** Rengar is going beast mode".

Quote:
Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
I just don't really like raw damage on this ability. Maybe that's just me. The heal as it is is fine IMO.

Quote:
Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased
I don't know why this is being buffed.

Quote:
Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased
Another raw buff. I don't get what's wrong with it as it is right now.

Quote:
Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt
I like that enemies can now react to Rengar using this ability. I also like increased duration but the cooldown on it is already fine and the extra movement speed is also fine. It doesn't need to be buffed in that way.


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Wakibara

Junior Member

07-16-2013

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt


The last change.

"Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt"

Rengar has a 2000/3000/4000 sight range on his ultimate currently. How in the world is any Rengar player going to be able to jump onto someone unless the MS increase is a massive change from the 20%/25%/30% it is now? By the time he gets into leap range they'll either be hugging their turret or cuddled between the 4 other members of their team.


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Daddy December

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?
'tonight i dine on turtle soup'


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RadiantWings

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Your current changes are giving us a lot of conflicting messages

"We want to increase Rengars sustained damage but lower his burst damage"

-Shifts damage from Savagery's attack speed to Rengar's ability usage, making him even MORE bursty.
-Wants to make him less meatwall and therefore less able to put out sustained damage in a fight.

"It's OK for Rengar to splitpush well"
-Removes ASPD from Savagery with the intent of nerfing his splitpushing.


Alright let's start with achieving your general goal to make Rengar less toxic. Since you want him to be more of a sustained damage dealer, then apply more melee-carry type reasoning with him so that he gets more damage out of right-clicking than abilities.

Quote:

Ferocity Mechanic:

-ALL ferocity abilities scale with level by 50 + 10/lvl for levels 1-9 and +15/lvl for levels 10-18, giving him a base of 275 on Ferocity abilities at level 18.
-Ferocity will gradually increase every 4 seconds if Rengar has not taken damage for 8 seconds,

It doesn't make sense for you to only apply level scaling Ferocity to only two of his abilities, even if the base damage of the abilities is pretty far apart. Feral Q's scaling is something that can be fixed to be less abusive (ala Jayce rework).

The second part about gradual Ferocity regeneration accomplishes two goals:
1) Allows you to remove Ferocity regen from Rengar's ultimate and remove triple Q abuse case.
2) Gives Rengar a much better time in the jungle. Rengar can now start out with an Empowered ability right away, and every time he recalls, he will generally have an empowered ability ready by the time he gets back.

The long cooldown outside of just entering lane will help curb lane abuses while double Q can be fixed by itself .

Quote:
Q:Savagery
Quote:
-Cooldown reduced to 5 seconds at all ranks
-Base damage is now 10/55/100/145/190
-No longer generates Ferocity against towers

Empowered Savagery
-Damage scaling reduced to 100% AD down from 200% AD.
-Empowered Savagery reduces enemy armor by X%

. Savagery is Rengar's bread and butter and *needs* a low cooldown if his jungle times are going to be decent. Reduced early damage reigns in level 1 Q abuse and the leveling bonus keep ranking up Savagery's damage competitive with ranking Rengar's other abilities.

. Making it not generate Ferocity against towers is more to streamline it with other "on-hit generation effects" like Caitlyn's headshot or Grave's Quickdraw.

. For Empowered Savagery, reducing the sheer burst in exchange for a devastating armor reduction would go along way towards sustained damage while also toning down Rengar's damage against towers without an absolute intent to destroy him in that area.
Quote:

W: Battle Roar

-Cooldown reduced
-Damage reduced to 40/65/90/115/140
-Rengar now shields himself for an amount equal value.
-While active, Rengar's basic attacks heal him for 8/13/18/23/28 (20% of shield value) health.

Empowered Battle Roar
-Shield value is equivalent to damage value. Health restore is 20% of that value.
-Rengar gains X% lifesteal


. Making Battle Roar more of a dedicated defense/sustain would be a lot better than the hybrid setup it has right now. You do NOT want to return the time where Rengar does fly-by Battle Roars for stupid amounts of damage while retaining situational yet overbearing tank bonuses. The shield will be like Riven's Valor, implied damage ignoring/deflection.

. A shield is very easy to read for an opponent as opposed to some situational auto-attack reduction that would without a doubt, have to be overpowered early game to be anywhere near effective late game. It also cements Rengar into more of a duelist

. Shields make it easier for Rengar to play defensively if he has to, allowing him to counterbuild defense in a losing lane.

. The duration of the ability can be adjusted to control Rengar's sustain since the shield portion will only last for 1 or 2 hits anyways. Unlike Irelia's sustain, Rengar will have to push a minion wave with incidental aoe damage in order to get the most out of this.

. Shields give easily measurable amounts of effective health in the jungle

. Scaling shield simulates the health spike baiting/ on demand oh **** button while trading healing for a healthier mechanic. This also balances out the Ferocity suggestion outlined at the start.
Quote:
E: Bola Strike

I have nothing against your current changes, but be warned that Bola chucking is what keeps Rengar afloat right now because it simulates the guaranteed ranged harass put out by those other problem top champions. The only thing is that you can actually outsustain Bola harass if you have a champion dedicated to that.


R: Thrill of the Hunt
-Rengar passively gains 10/15/20% increased bonus AD
-Cooldown at later ranks increased
-Duration increased to 12 seconds
-No longer generates Ferocity
-Stealths Rengar instantly
-Movement speed changed to 15/20/25% increase and triples when moving towards a detected enemy champion.
-Rengar marks the first champion he hits. Marked targets give vision and Rengar retains Thrill of the Hunt's unmodified speed bonus and doubles his bonus AD while facing his mark.
-Rengar can reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to gain Unseen predator. This effect refreshes whenever Rengar's current mark dies.

. Increasing the cooldown for Thrill of the Hunt and making it so that he has to chase champions for the max speed bonus will cut down on his splitpush raids.

. Giving him actual combat bonuses outside of just Ferocity on his ult will actually allow Rengar to be balanced around having the power spikes that other champions get out of their ultimates outside of utility.

. Giving Rengar a second jump outside of brush will finally solve his kiting issues by cornering enemies in much the same way his rival does. Kha'zix jumps, ADC uses escape. Kha'zix ults, AD flashes. Kha'zix ults again and ADC is dead if they got caught out alone outside of tower. This "assured death if caught alone" should be true for pretty much any assassin vs. any AD carry.


Quote:
Finally Bonetooth Necklace

From what I gather from your post, you guys REALLY want to make Bonetooth Necklace a part of Rengar's gameplay, yet its position as a snowball item makes it hard as hell to balance. It will forever remain this way as long as it's balanced around being an item. Making it build out of Hunter's Machete seems like a good idea for jungle Rengar, yet that needlessly pidgeonholes a signature of his gameplay into one role, and effectively locks out every other jungle item as a viable build. The solution? Make Bonetooth Necklace an inherent part of Rengar.

- Rengar now has Bonetooth necklace inherently. He gains trophies on kill and assist and does not lose them on death.

- When Rengar has enough trophies, he can buy different utility effects from the store.

- Each effect has a gold cost and trophy capacity. Rengar can only acquire effects up to his current trophy level.


Essentially, if Rengar is doing well, he gets alternate build paths that will allow you to customize how you play him without breaking him since he has to spend gold. Making it so that he doesn't drop trophies on death makes it so you don't suddenly lose these effects. If gold efficacy per effect is done right, it would be incredibly rewarding to Rengar players to be able to unlock amazing new playstyles while keeping him from being overbearing to his opponents in duels due from a gold advantage.

Let me give an example list of what you could give:

-600 gold Mammoth Tusk 1 trophy
Increases Rengar's AD by 3 for every unused trophy capacity. Late game minor infinite scaling. A "go to" buy

-400 gold Snake skin 2 trophies
Rengar remains hidden by brush (including unseen predator) for up to .75 seconds after leaving it. This effect has 2 charges on a 5 second cooldown to prevent endless brush juking. This is not invisibility so you can still detect him by being in the right brush.

-800 gold Hawk Tail 4 trophies
Unseen predator duration increased to 1 second and is no longer consumed on use (DOUBLEJUMP! BRING IT BACK! (And make it less abuseable for the laning phase)

-800 gold Panther Claw 4 trophies
Reactivating Thrill of the Hunt will stealth Rengar for 1 second and generate 1 Ferocity.

And etc. etc.