A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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rathy Aro

Senior Member

07-16-2013

I always enjoyed Rengar most as a bruiser. I like to walk into team fights, do some damage, take some damage, and stealth out when I was about to die AND THEN often I could reengage on a low health carry for a kill, while my team can clean up because I already took some of the burst/cc. I also liked to jungle him very much, because he brought carry-esque qualities to jungle while having incredibly reliable ganks, similar to nocturne, but honestly stronger (back then).

What I didn't like was his burst from ult. It seems wrong for a bruiser to be able to be an effective assassin. He simply fills too many roles well that way. I also thought he should not be a top laner. Given his kit, his top lane seems to live or die by can he out sustain your harass or not, which isn't really interesting and if he ever was strong enough to survive top, he just ended up carrying way to hard with farm given he is a tanky, fighter, assassin. AP Rengar was bad for the same reasons.

I had no issue with his CDR, tank build and I think bonetooth is fine as is. Its kind of hard to fit into a bruiser build so I probably wouldn't build it, unless it could outright replace a damage item like bruta.


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LupusNox

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Riot, take a lesson that you have learned from warwick (or will learn...)

Giving someone a marker over their head when the "predator" is near and waiting to kill them makes that tool almost useless.

Making it so that if your in range of his ult you get a marker will do to Rengar and his ganks/chasing power what Warwick's E does to his ganks/chasing power. People will instantly know that they are in danger and will retreat to safety post-haste. Leave his stealth as actual stealth. if you want to put a auditory aid for when he starts his stealth, similar to Nocturne, then make it global. A ganking/stealthed Rengar should be feared unanimously and without knowledge by his prey, rather than having his prey say "oh cool, hes here time to flee..."

TLDR - stop making "predators" and then giving their "prey" knowledge that they are being hunted...


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C13Magnum

Member

07-16-2013

I like a lot of the changes, though I wonder if his kit doesn't need something else. His mobility is highly dependent on his ult, unlike kha'zix who can weave in and out of fighting, rengar just gets stuck. Kha'zix kit works in that he can poke enemies and then can jump in on a weakened enemy, get a quick kill, and then jump back out to safety. Zed is another assassin who works similarly. Rengar MUST 100-0 enemies because he has no poke, no re-engage (kha'zix ult), and no escape. Fix one or two of those and he suddenly doesn't need to burst as hard.

Obviously poke doesn't seem to fit his kit. What if his ult worked like this: fade to stealth, increased speed and can be seen like eve (gives far more warning, but the increased speed and leap still allows him to close, he just can't run THROUGH a team to get his target) but after he has leapt he has a short time where he can instantly restealth again, but this time completely hidden, allowing him A) to re-engage his target, or B) escape.

This becomes similar to kha'zix ult (though with longer duration and a gap closer associated with it), which is really what he needs to successfully assassinate without bursting 100-0. The fade time on the initial ult means he can't just use it as a disengage while split pushing (as he used to abuse), and you have plenty of warning when you can see his initial ult a la evelynn.


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Tycosnh

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I hope SOMEONE at riot sees this, i don't care who. My name is Tyco, and I play a lot of Rengar. I'm over on EUW, but I am here because I want to see Rengar changed. You have asked peoples opinions on jungle Rengar, and that is what I play, a lot, since his release. He has been my favorite champion.

First off, an idea that I had. Make bonetooh build out of Hunter's Machete. To be honest, I don't think rengar should be a laner, I think you guys should go full on making him a Jungler. That's where he belongs, in my opinion. Everything points to that, his lore, his play style, the tag on his champion card thing. If you DO make Bonetooth build off of machete, there has to be some sort of jungle itemization. More damage to monsters, maybe something like wriggles. Has to be something. My thought on it is, if you have the bonetooth, you get the 10 magic damage on auto attack, and it makes your W take less damage from monsters. To balance it out you could remove the AD or if you get 1 stack on the item, you get the W DR.

I aswell think, since you are making his ferocity skills go off his overall level, and not the level of the ability, you should buff his base stats a bit. That will help his clear soooo much.

Now, his ult. I REALLY don't like what you're doing with it. I think there HAS to be a way to counter play it more without ruining it. Maybe keep the voice announcement but EVERYONE on the team hears it. Or maybe everyone on the team gets the signal. If its just if he has vision on you, the person can just hide under tower for like 10 seconds and its useless. Maybe do it when he's about to jump? I don't know, but the change that is being looked at right now is a down right nerf, when it does not need to be.

I really love Rengar and If ANYTHING I said inspires any of the riot team, I will be very happy. Thank you for reading, if you do.


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RainblowCupcakes

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?
Riot, for the love of my adored kitty, do this please! That would make his ult so fantastic!


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Tattersail

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Just updated the OP with the changes that are currently testing. Numbers excluded as they're subject to change.

Tried an iteration where Savagery, in lieu of Attack Speed instead awarded a bonus point of Ferocity to Rengar when he used it on targets below 50% health. I liked how it played out, but wasn't noticeable enough and in most cases it was just 'Rengar is getting more 5 points than usual for doing things he'd do anyways' - i'd like to see some form of this return somewhere on the Bonetooth if at all possible, and we're investigating cool ways to make that happen.

All of his Ferocity Effects not minding what you were previously leveling has made some cool cases in lane where you'll max W/E but still choose Q - whereas on Live it's just 'what is the thing i am leveling? Doublecast that for crazy spike damage' - in response we've upped the damage on these abilities to make them singularly better for their regular use-cases.

W's current iteration is trying something i heard from forumgoers the last time Classick was discussing his changes that also helps him jungle. My vision for Battle Roar if it needs to have a defensive component is to make it less good against every thing and give it a distinct use-case. Currently running with Doran's shield passive for all Physical Damage. This makes him much more susceptible to magic damage and mage CC + Burst combos, but keeps him strong vs those carries he loves to chew on, as well as keeping those jungle mobs honest. I'm not super attached to it, but it's definitely fulfilling my goals as of now.

R's runspeed being upped right now really allows it to be used for strategic set ups, but is probably stronger than a character like this needs at rank 1. While revealing him earlier might sound like a super nerf, in practice it's shown that it's not actually enough to stop people from feeling totally jumped. The VO playing when he ults though has been testing -very- well both as/against and really strikes fear into enemies. What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?

Anyways, i've gotten a lot of good ideas from you guys tonight that i want to think on. I'm not gonna pass out just yet so i'll be around for a bit longer, but my Safari Zone timer's runnin' out
Personally I think that having an icon over your head indicating that Rengar sees you is a bad idea, he relies heavily on his ult for ganks, and if they know he's coming for you, they'll back off. I do however like the idea of the Global VO like Nocturne. I think this would still let everyone know "HEY RENGAR JUST ULTED" while at the same time preserve the, where/who is he going for. The enemy would still have the opportunity to prepare for a gank/get jumped on while preserving the element of surprise.

A lot of people are talking about knowing when he's getting close and all of that, but he's a predator, not an elephant stomping through the jungle. (I use this purely for the visual, since elephants are surprisingly quiet in the jungle )

Also, I disagree with having Bonetooth build out of machete. I think this specs purely into jungle only while a LOT of people play lane Rengar, and enjoy playing Rengar in a lane. I don't want my favourite top laner to be designated jungle only...


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Cryptid V

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Global VO on his ult would be fantastic. Doing for just those who has sight of him sounds cool but a little lacking.

The problem I'm thinking of seeing with people knowing when he's nearby would be in teamfights, someone can just set down a pink ward and then Rengars most likely useless. Anyone could do it.


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starkey xxx

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Hi. I'm an AD carry. When Rengar jumps on me from stealth it makes me jump irl. I find that kind of fun.


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Fuzen kuden

Senior Member

07-16-2013

so your what your saying is an assassin assassinating is wrong?


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YNewflag

Recruiter

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey y'all -

So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.

What our playtests revealed is that preserving the predatory feel by making his ultimate stronger is all well and good, but proved pretty abusive when it came to his burst potential. In a way, Rengar is a champion that has always been defined by his abuse-cases, either in TripleQ assassinating someone in less than a second from stealth, or double tap W + DFG pentakilling teams from stealth with AP, or simply stacking health + spirit visage splitpushing waves, then escaping from nearly any sort of chase. We've come a long way from the latter of these, but if the Pridestalker is to see any sort of return to glory we'll need to iron out some of the abusive kinks and round him out as a whole.

We're sticking with the direction that Classick originally outlined in his post here (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...71487#37371487) - namely reducing the frustration/toxicity of Thrill of the Hunt (Ultimately allowing us to buff the spell in other ways) and driving clarity in his Ferocity choices by having the effects scale with champion level rather than rank of skill. Our other goal is to retain his dueling nature and strength in ambushes and skirmishes, but lower his instagib potential in favor of deferring his up-front damage into longer engagement windows. While he'll still be a threat, changing him to a sustained damage pattern allows us to pump more power into his other abilities/ferocity bonuses and make his ability set as a whole stronger instead of the current 'stabcat on AD carry and one or both of us will die' pattern that makes Rengar so frustrating and binary to play as and against on Live.

So with that out of the way, here are some questions i'd like to get your thoughts on -

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

These questions are really just to begin the discussion - i'm certainly looking for thoughts/feedback on a variety of topics, but these are a few that we've been talking about on a higher level that have less of a set direction currently. Wav3break, one of our Live Design Interns is working closely with me on this project and will be monitoring this thread alongside me and will help to soak feedback and answer questions y'all may have.

Without further ado: Rengar! I choose you!

Here are the changes (Without numbers, as they are subject to change/tuning as always) that we've been testing so far:

General
- Health Regen, Health Regen/lvl, and Health/lvl all increased

Unseen Predator
-Now becomes visible at the beginning of the leap, rather than midleap

Savagery
- Attack Speed removed (Temporary for now - planning on putting something else here)

Ferocity Bonus: Savagery
- Damage lowered, Attack Speed lowered, Attack Speed Duration increased

Battle Roar
- Damage increased
- Cooldown decreased
- No longer grants Armor/MR - instead grants damage reduction from Physical Damage/Basic Attacks

Ferocity Bonus: Battle Roar
- Heal unchanged
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level

Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased

Thrill of the Hunt
- Cooldown decreased
- Duration increased
- Movement speed increased
- Enemies will now receive a particle over their head when Rengar can see them; Additionally, Enemies will hear Voice Over on activation if they are in Rengar's sight range when he casts Thrill of the Hunt
If you change my only main rengar now, i might quit league not kidding.. I AM SICK OF RIOT'S ****ING PIECE OF **** REWORKS AND CHAMPION CHANGES. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD'S SAKE STOP TOUCHING MY CHAMPIONS. RENGAR IS FINE OKAY? LEAVE HIM, I DON'T WANT HIM TO BE VIABLE OR WHATEVER THE **** YOU WANT HIM TO BE. HE IS GOOD RIOT, BETTER THAN YOU ARE. ****ING RETARDED PIECE OF ****S GET YOUR ****ING HANDS OFF MY CHAMPIONS YOU SACK OF RETARDED PIECE OF ****S. HE IS AN ASSSAIN AND HE FEELS LIKE AN ASSASIN AND HE IS GOOD AT ASSASINATION.


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