A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Joystick

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Another thought I had about the necklace: if you really want Rengar in the jungle (and I think he should be there) maybe it builds out of machete? If he gets his necklace early game, you can really do some cool things as it ramps up. Of course this is based on my earlier suggestion (as well as some suggestions from above posters) that it stacks not only on kills and assists but what types of jungle monsters he slays and how many. I won't go into specifics about what enhancements to his kit and abilities would look like through the necklace because a lot of people here have put out some really great ideas in that regard. I'd just love to see the necklace become an incentivized jungle Rengar item that stacks based on monster/champion kills. Maybe when he dies, rather than lose everything he worked up towards with his early game monster slaying, he only loses half the stacks he gained from champion kills/assists and loses none of what he gained from the monsters. Again that makes it less snowbally and he'll still want to get it if even if his team is a little behind. The enhancements should help his ganking as well as give him good buff control without making him too reliant on blowing up the enemy carry and dying in the process (that's obviously no fun and something you all have stated you want to change).

The extra leap range is great and something I think he could get early via bonetooth stacks because it doesn't add TOO much to be OP but enough to make a difference in his ganks. Extra movement speed in brush should be something to aspire to for mid game as roaming and team fighting becomes even more important. Maybe some sort of enhancement to his Q should be late game, maybe a percent health bonus as the enemies become tankier. This makes it so he can doesn't HAVE to jump onto the ADC because he can't do damage to anyone else.

(Sorry i'm just sort of rambling off my brain stream here).

The thing about junglers these days is they are getting shoehorned into building tanky support items and that's something you guys are looking into fixing, which is great. But adding bonuses to Rengars utility and damage (via bonetooth) as the game progresses allows him to become that tanky bruiser that (imo) is what is so great about Rengar. I will say that it's a dangerous game though, adding what is (essentially) free power to Rengar while he is still getting jungle gold to build those tanky items. But junglers like Zac have really good base damage and really only need to build defensive items and can still dish out great damage and put out huge CC. So what's the problem really?

My proposed necklace changes do a couple of things that are good for Rengar, at least in my opinion.

1.) He'll be encouraged to jungle so other top laners don't have to deal with his obnoxious sustain and sort of weird play patterns. I mean, jungling fits his lore so well anyway, why not make it his true home as it was meant to be?

2.) He'll scale and have interesting (but not huge) power spikes at certain points in the game. And he's got a choice about how to get there. Do I want to farm and have this guaranteed power later? Or do I want to gank and get kills to have this power now but potentially lose it if I die?

3.) He won't be forced to simply build pure AD and die while blowing up enemy squishies, which we all know sucks to do as rengar and sucks to have done to you BY rengar.

I'll keep pondering, but hopefully @scarizard replies to this, I'd love to see what he thinks.


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Foochy

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Rengar is in a good place right now. These changes would be nerfing him, especially allowing other players to know when he is actively hunting them with his ult. What kind of hunter purposely alerts his prey? Bonetooth necklace should be an automatic weapon rengar spawns with (like viktor's staff). The buffs to bola and roar are great, and triple Q should be removed because that is ridiculous.


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mageofshadow

Junior Member

07-16-2013

First time posting on the forum so be gentle!

-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?

I can see why people want jungle Rengar to be viable but as a top lane player please don't take away my top Rengar! I have always felt top is where Rengar belongs because of those side bushes. Leaping from the bushes is what makes Rengar fun to play, at least for me. It is just incredibly satisfying to leap from the bushes and surprise an enemy or destroy a minion. The juking possibilities from jumping on minions and the gank potential are what make Rengar exciting to me.

-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target

I think the damage mitigation on the W was always a side effect. You wanted the W for the massive heal and for slight damage. Perhaps this ability could better emphasize the damage capabilities? Providing spell vamp and life steal for instance better fits his all in approach. That being said, while the current Rengar is an all in burst then you're out sort of champion I rarely feel like I am a kamikaze and I need some extra defenses to survive the enemy team turning on me. As he is now I rely on timing and burst to prevent my death, not the W.

-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

The way Bonetooth Necklace is right now is fine so far as I can tell. That being said I can definitely see why you would want to make changes. I have read some of the suggestions here and I really like the idea of making it a part of his passive. An item slot is actually a huge expense and without a significant effect waisting your time and effort on something like Bonetooth Necklace can be discouraging. This needs to be an item that is useful without stacks or it will never see higher level play, the current decent amount of AD is enough to keep it viable as it is fairly cost effective.

Another possible idea is make this a starting item. Something like 400g for 5 ad and some other minor stat. Then make all the passive stacking bonuses things like "Increase leap range".

I love the leaping function of Rengar. it is my favorite thing about playing him. Maybe something on Bonetooth that lets you leap a second or two after you have left the bush would be cool? Might be too strong but it would also help with jungle Rengar's ganks.

As to the ult. There is plenty of counter play already IMO. A ward in the river shows you Renagr before he goes invis. An oracles makes the stealth entirely irrelevant. I think it's possible you could actually do away entirely with the stealth element or make it something like a dark templars shimmer and then buff the MS part and just make an ability to help you chase down surprise and leap on enemies without luring them near bushes.


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Hyde from Darius

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Honestly furious with riot for this, Rengar is one of the most balanced champions in the game, why fix something that isn't broken? Go fix jayce.


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LastEscapist

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Why do you bother? He's gonna **** him up like he did with Karma


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Alpha Gray

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I love Rengar to death, and I'm super excited about these changes. I love the idea of him as a Jungler, as well, because it feels so appropriate. I'll say up front that I don't play Rengar in ranked and if I did, I wouldn't be very highly ranked anyway. I just love his play pattern, but I'm too afraid of its binary nature and Top isn't my preferred home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-Do you identify Rengar's playstyle as one that would be a particularly good fit in the jungle? What improvements would you like to see be made to help him out?
Someone earlier suggested that Bonetooth build out of Hunter's Machete, which I like except that it would need to be as good a jungle clear item as either Madred's (which in my mind is the preferred Rengar jungle item) or Spirit Stone. I don't think that the Maim passive would be bad for Bonetooth, but I also feel like it seems mutually exclusive to the traditional AD/Level stat that Bonetooth always gave before. That stat made it feel worth it to have Bonetooth in my inventory simply because I knew I was getting some benefit from it, even if I wasn’t snowballing. Is that a thing you're thinking of nixing? Just curious.

In Season 2, it always felt like I had to work really hard in the Jungle to get going as Rengar (partly because no one really wanted to help), but now it seems much more acceptable to assist a Jungler with a Red start, which gives Rengar more flexibility in the jungle. I would like it if the duration of Unseen Predator when leaving a bush were just slightly longer. Right now, to gank mid, Rengar either has to have his ultimate available or work really hard with the mid laner to rotate their opponent toward a bush. With a little bit more time to clear the brush (combined with the previously suggested +% Brush Movespeed) and still get the jump in, it would be a lot easier to naturally engage a mid laner who’s favoring the true center of the lane. I don’t really think this has a huge effect on the other lanes, given that Rengar’s leap range fairly well covers top lane anyway. I’m not talking about much more than an additional second. Maybe a second and a half, depending on user feedback. Of course, this time is kind of dependent on Rengar’s movement speed, since how close he can get before jumping is related to how fast he is moving, I guess. Maybe slight tweaks to his base movement speed? He is a cat, after all.

It might be nice if Dragon or Baron gave him a stack on the Bonetooth. Both of those are “worthy foes” and might help him as a Jungler as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-What is appealing to you about the defensive boost Rengar receives from Battle Roar? I'd like to change this from just flat Armor and Magic Resistance to something that can be situationally more powerful and makes him less 'meatwall' when he leaps on a target
I find that I’m primarily using this in lane to build combo points (ferocity, whatever) and reduce the effect of ranged harassment from bros like Jayce or even Vlad. If it had to change, I’d like to see it turn into something like a minion terrify to increase his jungling capacity (see above), though that straight rips off Volibear. Alternatively, it could be a two-stage AE, like Maokai’s Arcane Smash where nearby enemies deal reduced damage? I think this is more interesting because it still gives other characters the ability to peel Rengar off and keeps his dueling prowess high. I’m not talking about an AD leach, either, I mean a straight up “Nearby enemies are intimidated. All damage they deal is reduced by 9 / 12 / 15 / 18 / 21% for 3 seconds.” Maybe that confers too much team utility because then Rengar could jump in and initiate a fight while reducing multiple stacked-up characters’ damage out, but it also maximizes his effectiveness over the course of a window of engagement. Still, a point-blank micro-exhaust gives him utility in the jungle and the ability to feel like he’s truly isolating a target. You don’t want to stack up when Rengar jumps in because you don’t want to get group-exhausted. Gives him some soft control. And all your team's other status effects and CC is still pretty viable.

Last idea is that it works a little bit like Galio's Runic Bulwark - insofar as for the duration of Battle Roar, whenever Rengar takes damage, he gains some kind of bonus. Could be attack speed, lifesteal, movespeed, or just on-hit physical damage for his auto attacks (with diminishing returns, of course)? Thematically pretty apt, even with just the "Come on!" voice over. But then again, Rengar doesn't really need more damage. My idea here is essentially you don't necesarily want to hit Rengar unless you know you can kill him or escape. It's a bit Mongo-ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-What types of improvements or changes would you like to see be made to Bonetooth Necklace? Ideally i'd like to see this moved away from a 'stat-stick' and embrace more unique enhancements like his 'Increases Leap Range by 150'

As far as cool Bonetooth enhancements that affect Rengar's kit, I really, really like that idea. I would like to see something like Critical Strikes granting a point of Ferocity, which might open alternate build paths? Now, like, first thing I thought of was using Sword of the Divine to stack ferocity while **** is on cooldown, which seems kind of abusive, but also sort of fringe since it’s a very specific item.

Maybe Rengar gains a buff from one of the Bonetooth enhancements for the actual act of stalking his prey? In other words, if an enemy champion is in range of Unseen Predator, he gains a stacking buff that converts into Ferocity points? Each .25 seconds, Rengar receives a stack of On The Hunt. At 5 stacks, Rengar gains a bonus point of ferocity. This would lead to a very stalker-y Rengar that could be anticipating a split push, but waiting for that perfect moment to strike without needing to blow his ult. You have to balance giving up on CS and allowing that pressure for getting closer to the perfect opportunity to fly out of the brush and be Rengar. I know that this is kind of the point of Ferocity generation during his ultimate, but yeesh it would be cool if he didn’t have to use that outside of team fights.

I also like the Brush Movement speed, though I’ll miss the flat bonus. Actually, it would be nice if that was just attached to Unseen Predator so that his ultimate conferred the movement speed as well.

I’m not in love with things that interact directly with individual skills coming off of anything but the 12-stack buff to his Ultimate. I would prefer for everything else to be somewhat more passive. I think if you had something like 6 stacks gives Bola Strike increased range, that’s going to guarantee I’m leveling Bola strike first to get more of them flying and get more damage off the base skill.



And Finally:

What does Rengar dream of, when he takes a little Rengar snooze?
Does he dream of mauling Teemo? Or killing Katarina in her kitty kat suit?
Well, don’t you fret your pretty Rengar head:
We’re gonna get you lots of kills and get you super Rengar fed.
Then you’re gonna feel the Thrill of the Hunt
And then you’re gonna start to stack your Bonetooth up.


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Grey Wolf

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
So i wanted to talk to you guys about our good ol' Stabtabby, Rengar. Classick handed off to me his initial refactor of Rengar that he had begun posting about a while back, but internally it was shown that while it certainly buffed him and fixed some issues with his design, more work needed to be done.
Why would you ever consider working on Rengar before other deserving champions, say like Warwick? How many times was Warwick picked in the Spring NA LCS, 0?


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AlienKnitter

Junior Member

07-16-2013

A thought on his W: Make it apply a damage reduction against all types of damage, but only against enemies hit. It makes range a much more effective control lever on it, should you need one, and also makes perfect-use scenarios feel much more rewarding. Also, if the enemy team spreads out he can't hit everyone, meaning at least one person can still hit him hard, and possibly more than one, so there seems to be a lot of counterplay there.


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Furi Kuri

Member

07-16-2013

So you're destroying another champion...Okay Rito.


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RichardHead

Senior Member

07-16-2013

make him howl/snarl/growl/scream moar when he has bonetooth necklace. even amplify the effects as he stacks it up!