A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Parapsychology

Member

12-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamcario View Post
This is all wrong.

W makes rengar tanky. timing double casts correctly gives you 6 seconds of big armor/mr steroid.

why not play an "actual" tank? no tanks are as strong in lane as rengar except maybe shyvana. with just a trinity rengar deals heaps of damage.

rengar doesn't have to get kills to get bonetooth stacks, assists add them too, so he adds on stacks faster by going in face first and dying but getting 4 assists as opposed to suicide diving someone to maybe have one more stack after probably dying.

Rengar is not underpowered, he's one of the best champions in the game and tank rengar is how he's played in pro level. his W is already getting nerfed on PBE iirc. knowing how strong bruiser rengar already is, I imagine his numbers will be very bad once the rework is done... since they're actually giving him a bruiser kit now. there's no way rengar can be balanced with W on a lower cd and higher damage.
Yes.. double casting does make 6 seconds worth of buff duration.. but how often is his double cast ready? If you are simply waiting to exchange damage with an enemy only under the assumption you have a double cast ready.. how is this good for the community? This is the exact mechanization riot wants to do away with.. having to rely on double casts to come up on top.

Secondly.. when you state Rengar is not underpowered.. you must not be looking at the statistics.. and the statistics of Rengar never breaking a 50% win rate in ranked solo queue AND normal queue should speak for itself. Also.. what items have the highest win rate? CARRY ITEMS.. not tanky on Rengar. Bruiser/Tank Rengar is just for the people who are too afraid to play Rengar the correct way as riot has him categorized as.

No tanks are as strong in lane? Have you tried playing as Renekton? Darius? How about Singed post 6? Give me a break dude.. this game is considered a tank's Meta for a reason =(

Actually the PROS play Rengar as assassin .. go look at the actual "pros." What pros are you talking about?


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Insanities Eye

Junior Member

12-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapsychology View Post
Yes.. double casting does make 6 seconds worth of buff duration.. but how often is his double cast ready? If you are simply waiting to exchange damage with an enemy only under the assumption you have a double cast ready.. how is this good for the community? This is the exact mechanization riot wants to do away with.. having to rely on double casts to come up on top.

Secondly.. when you state Rengar is not underpowered.. you must not be looking at the statistics.. and the statistics of Rengar never breaking a 50% win rate in ranked solo queue AND normal queue should speak for itself. Also.. what items have the highest win rate? CARRY ITEMS.. not tanky on Rengar. Bruiser/Tank Rengar is just for the people who are too afraid to play Rengar the correct way as riot has him categorized as.

No tanks are as strong in lane? Have you tried playing as Renekton? Darius? How about Singed post 6? Give me a break dude.. this game is considered a tank's Meta for a reason =(

Actually the PROS play Rengar as assassin .. go look at the actual "pros." What pros are you talking about?
The person you were quoting is right, the Koreans have done tank rengar top and have been doing it ever since, and the NA pros have picked up on it

Here is Dyrus playing Rengar tank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWXLkBSabw

this guy is not pro but he explains it a little better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zns8UMzTWhc

all in all Yes you can play rengar tank, people tend to not like it in low elo because you dont do damage, but in laneing faze he is one of the hardest champs to beat because of the sustain. I tend to buy 3 tank items and then get 2 damage items though, it works pretty well in my opinion, and you survive longer in team fights. All I am saying is just try it for a few games.


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Parapsychology

Member

12-20-2013

I will take Ninfang Rengar over Dyrus Rengar anyday.

Something about sitting in lane outsustaining an enemy with lackluster burst doesn't sound appealing to me compared to getting first blood and watching the enemy jungler try and camp top to contain the snowball.

How many champions would run from a fed tanky Rengar..? How many would run from a Rengar with over 400 AD?

I see your argument. But why does riot have him as an assassin then?


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assassin

as·sas·sin
n.
1. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.


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GrieverXIII

Senior Member

12-20-2013

Leave Rengar alone, he's fun to play how he is. I can understand the toxicity argument behind the stealth of his ult but without it, GL reaching anything without getting stomped. A character labelled as a Fighter/Assassin shouldn't HAVE to be built tanky to even have a chance a connecting with something.


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Ingolfur

Senior Member

12-20-2013

The thing I don't understand: KhaZix instagib anyone and run with jump.
No one complains about KhaZix.
Rengar instagibs some squishy and then actually dies.
Whole newb army is rising against Rengar, finally nerfing him to oblivion.


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Insanities Eye

Junior Member

12-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapsychology View Post
I will take Ninfang Rengar over Dyrus Rengar anyday.

Something about sitting in lane outsustaining an enemy with lackluster burst doesn't sound appealing to me compared to getting first blood and watching the enemy jungler try and camp top to contain the snowball.

How many champions would run from a fed tanky Rengar..? How many would run from a Rengar with over 400 AD?

I see your argument. But why does riot have him as an assassin then?


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assassin

as·sas·sin
n.
1. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.
I see your argument my friend, and though yes they do have him labeled as assassin, he is one crappy assassin, he still doesn't have the needed escape, and has a 6 sec. tank ability. By the way, I would take a tank rengar if my team has the needed damage, I would build ninfang rengar when my team already has a tank or no damage...though I dont really have much fun, because I usually die late game in team fights really easily right after killing the high priority target, it just seems boring to me, mainly because I have done it way too much in the low elo playing field.

Yes Riot does have him listed as assassin, however when rengar first came out he was not listed as such...leads me to believe they intended for him to be a Bruiser or tank, especially when his W gave him a 10% max health heal, now those were the good days of bruiser rengar, that was fun. But again once rengar gets a good escape like Evelynns speed boost or Kha's Jump then I will consider him a true LoL Assassin Class Champ, until then, he is still lost in translation on what type of class he is suppose to be in


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Steamcario

Senior Member

12-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapsychology View Post
Yes.. double casting does make 6 seconds worth of buff duration.. but how often is his double cast ready? If you are simply waiting to exchange damage with an enemy only under the assumption you have a double cast ready.. how is this good for the community? This is the exact mechanization riot wants to do away with.. having to rely on double casts to come up on top.

Secondly.. when you state Rengar is not underpowered.. you must not be looking at the statistics.. and the statistics of Rengar never breaking a 50% win rate in ranked solo queue AND normal queue should speak for itself. Also.. what items have the highest win rate? CARRY ITEMS.. not tanky on Rengar. Bruiser/Tank Rengar is just for the people who are too afraid to play Rengar the correct way as riot has him categorized as.

No tanks are as strong in lane? Have you tried playing as Renekton? Darius? How about Singed post 6? Give me a break dude.. this game is considered a tank's Meta for a reason =(

Actually the PROS play Rengar as assassin .. go look at the actual "pros." What pros are you talking about?
Carry items have high winrates on everyone because it's what people buy when they are fed. if someone tries to do a carry rengar and starts to feed they'll get defensive items if they are smart.

if rengar is smart you'll always wait to commit to a trade til you have 5 ferocity. that's the point of the mechanic.

solo queue winrates don't mean a whole lot. Shen generally has like a 47% winrate meanwhile fiora has one of the highest. there's also not a "correct" way to play anyone. the correct way is what works.

no tanks in lane are as strong as Korean rengar. Darius is awful, and renekton can't stand up to tank rengar. nothing can deal with double cast W when he's maxing it on top of magic pen hybrid pen reds, it does good damage, heals for a good ammount, and gives him A TON of defensive stats for that early in the game. The strongest part about is it that he has free casting so he can make this trade all day.

Pros play rengar tank, just watch OGN, LOL. Ninfang is not a pro, he's a high level solo queue player. he is not a professional, players in OGN and LCS are.

the idea of tank rengar isn't to get fed, it's to win lane almost guaranteed and then take advantage of rengar's bases + triforce to be a monster in teamfights. Yeah it's more fun to go assassin, but it's so easy to deal with in high level coordinated play.

Also yeah assassin rengar is more scary in a 1v1 situation when he gets the jump on you late in the game. But that situational is irrelevant to winning the game usually. Tank rengar has a consistent impact that can't be mitigated by a single stun. and really what you're looking for out of your top laner is self-reliance and constancy.

It's also worth noting that "tank rengar" isn't just full tank. mid and late game he builds offensive items so it's more of a bruiser rengar. just full tank early on.

example build order would be like: sunfire cape > ninja tabi > spirit visage > Bonetooth > trinity force > Randuins Omen > Sell Bonetoogh for BoRK. so there's a fair amount of sustained damage there, which is really what rengar was desinged to be built around given his free casting and AS steroids. Always remember that triple Q is an unintended technique that abuses the mechanics of his ult. This style of rengar will probably be the only way to play once this rework hits, all the changes complement this already dominant setup :L


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Parapsychology

Member

12-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamcario View Post
Carry items have high winrates on everyone because it's what people buy when they are fed. if someone tries to do a carry rengar and starts to feed they'll get defensive items if they are smart.

if Rengar is smart you'll always wait to commit to a trade til you have 5 ferocity. that's the point of the mechanic.

solo queue winrates don't mean a whole lot. Shen generally has like a 47% winrate meanwhile fiora has one of the highest. there's also not a "correct" way to play anyone. the correct way is what works.

no tanks in lane are as strong as Korean rengar. Darius is awful, and renekton can't stand up to tank rengar. nothing can deal with double cast W when he's maxing it on top of magic pen hybrid pen reds, it does good damage, heals for a good ammount, and gives him A TON of defensive stats for that early in the game. The strongest part about is it that he has free casting so he can make this trade all day.

Pros play rengar tank, just watch OGN, LOL. Ninfang is not a pro, he's a high level solo queue player. he is not a professional, players in OGN and LCS are.

the idea of tank rengar isn't to get fed, it's to win lane almost guaranteed and then take advantage of rengar's bases + triforce to be a monster in teamfights. Yeah it's more fun to go assassin, but it's so easy to deal with in high level coordinated play.

Also yeah assassin rengar is more scary in a 1v1 situation when he gets the jump on you late in the game. But that situational is irrelevant to winning the game usually. Tank rengar has a consistent impact that can't be mitigated by a single stun. and really what you're looking for out of your top laner is self-reliance and constancy.

It's also worth noting that "tank rengar" isn't just full tank. mid and late game he builds offensive items so it's more of a bruiser rengar. just full tank early on.

example build order would be like: sunfire cape > ninja tabi > spirit visage > Bonetooth > trinity force > Randuins Omen > Sell Bonetoogh for BoRK. so there's a fair amount of sustained damage there, which is really what rengar was desinged to be built around given his free casting and AS steroids. Always remember that triple Q is an unintended technique that abuses the mechanics of his ult. This style of rengar will probably be the only way to play once this rework hits, all the changes complement this already dominant setup :L
Hey guys don't get me wrong the bruiser version of Rengar is super duper META.. ad caster assassins just dont fit right now, I completely agree. My Rengar stats on my main "Amalek" are good but my win rate is trash. I have a 9.5/5.3/5.7/ KDA Spread in over 150 ranked games as Rengar.. and I only have a 50% win rate. There is something incredibly wrong with how I can become so fed but my team still can't provide enough depth to secure a win.


Morever.. you can't just throw Ninfang under the bus because he isn't in Korea.. he's the only Rengar main that has actually made it to challenger in solo queue.. what's more "professinal" than that. Oh so just because he wasn't drafted onto some corporate logo, he isn't considered professional? Have you seen Ninfang tear apart bot lane as a solo laner in highest elo games?

" if rengar is smart you'll always wait to commit to a trade til you have 5 ferocity. that's the point of the mechanic. " So then does Renekton only wait to trade when he has fully empowered abilities?

"the idea of tank rengar isn't to get fed, it's to win lane almost guaranteed and then take advantage of rengar's bases + triforce to be a monster in teamfights."

How isn't this more toxic that the triple Q Rengar? You are confessing to not even having the ambition to get fed... and you still say you will have a huge effect in team fights.. at least the Assassin form of Rengar has some risk/reward factor.. your version has ZERO -,-


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Steamcario

Senior Member

12-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapsychology View Post
Hey guys don't get me wrong the bruiser version of Rengar is super duper META.. ad caster assassins just dont fit right now, I completely agree. My Rengar stats on my main "Amalek" are good but my win rate is trash. I have a 9.5/5.3/5.7/ KDA Spread in over 150 ranked games as Rengar.. and I only have a 50% win rate. There is something incredibly wrong with how I can become so fed but my team still can't provide enough depth to secure a win.


Morever.. you can't just throw Ninfang under the bus because he isn't in Korea.. he's the only Rengar main that has actually made it to challenger in solo queue.. what's more "professinal" than that. Oh so just because he wasn't drafted onto some corporate logo, he isn't considered professional? Have you seen Ninfang tear apart bot lane as a solo laner in highest elo games?

" if rengar is smart you'll always wait to commit to a trade til you have 5 ferocity. that's the point of the mechanic. " So then does Renekton only wait to trade when he has fully empowered abilities?

"the idea of tank rengar isn't to get fed, it's to win lane almost guaranteed and then take advantage of rengar's bases + triforce to be a monster in teamfights."

How isn't this more toxic that the triple Q Rengar? You are confessing to not even having the ambition to get fed... and you still say you will have a huge effect in team fights.. at least the Assassin form of Rengar has some risk/reward factor.. your version has ZERO -,-
Assassin rengar tends to lose more even if he gets fed because his best case scenario is one shotting someone and then dying. this is why you build him bruiser in coordinated games.

ninfang is a good player but not a professional. there's probably a reason why he's not on a pro team (the way he plays rengar only works well in solo queue and rengar's like all he plays.)

Yes, renekton should wait to trade fully until he has 50 fury or he will probably lose. til then he wants to avoid trading fully and just build fury.

Tank rengar doesn't directly win the game or anything, he's just consistent and is strong for the whole game. he won't carry because it's hard to get fed being so defensive. frankly it's the healthiest rengar's actually been for the game because maxing W and building tanky means triple Q won't be used often because empowered Q will be weak.


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Insanities Eye

Junior Member

12-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapsychology View Post
Hey guys don't get me wrong the bruiser version of Rengar is super duper META.. ad caster assassins just dont fit right now, I completely agree. My Rengar stats on my main "Amalek" are good but my win rate is trash. I have a 9.5/5.3/5.7/ KDA Spread in over 150 ranked games as Rengar.. and I only have a 50% win rate. There is something incredibly wrong with how I can become so fed but my team still can't provide enough depth to secure a win.


Morever.. you can't just throw Ninfang under the bus because he isn't in Korea.. he's the only Rengar main that has actually made it to challenger in solo queue.. what's more "professinal" than that. Oh so just because he wasn't drafted onto some corporate logo, he isn't considered professional? Have you seen Ninfang tear apart bot lane as a solo laner in highest elo games?

" if rengar is smart you'll always wait to commit to a trade til you have 5 ferocity. that's the point of the mechanic. " So then does Renekton only wait to trade when he has fully empowered abilities?

"the idea of tank rengar isn't to get fed, it's to win lane almost guaranteed and then take advantage of rengar's bases + triforce to be a monster in teamfights."

How isn't this more toxic that the triple Q Rengar? You are confessing to not even having the ambition to get fed... and you still say you will have a huge effect in team fights.. at least the Assassin form of Rengar has some risk/reward factor.. your version has ZERO -,-

yes assassins do not fit the meta right now, but it still doesn't solve the fact that rengar isn't assassin material(yet?)....your main argument is that rengar IS an assassin, I just cant see him as one at all from the very beginning. I would choose Zed over Rengar any day, just because zed has 2x(if not more) of a chance to get the job done and get out alive while the teamfights break out.

Rengar has the potential to come out on top as a great assassin, or great bruiser, right now he is more viable than Jayce in the Bruiser Department, and he is a lot more viable than Diana in the assassin Department. But again would I choose him as assassin at all for team situations, more than likely not.

And if I may talk about Ninfang for a little, I enjoyed watching that guy play rengar, he is perhaps the best Rengar player. Making it to Challenger is even better, so props to him, however, this is in Solo-que. I swear to you if he played Zed/Eve like he plays Rengar, he would be on a team in a heartbeat. But teams are hesitant to take him because he is playing on an unbalanced champ. Trust me, Rengar MUST have these changes, and with this new season here, I think I would much rather have him with a bruiser kit, not an assassin kit. The name of the game now is survive the burst and carry the team afterwards.

Your argument is very much valid and I think Riot does agree with you, however I really hope assassin rengar doesn't go through, or else we will have perhaps an entire season where he, and all the other assassins aren't/can't be played thanks to the Supports being able to burst you in a tiny frame of time. This is sad because you seem so happy about Assassin Rengar, but he has to change with the meta, and Bruisers are almost always with the meta no matter what, everyone needs a tanky damage dealer, and I want to see Rengar fill that position like the Pride Stalker that he is.