A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Mr Sir Lebowski

Senior Member

09-11-2013

Firstly I just want to say I love the open line of communication with the players when making changes. So thank you for this.

I'm afraid I came in here too late to be a voice in this change but just like voting in an election every vote is supposed to count so I'll throw in my 2 cents on one thing that you may still feel has wiggle room to change at this point.

BTN

I feel compelled to buy this item for Rengar no matter what, and that is NOT a bad thing. It is part of the champions flavor and I love it. It's never felt like a neccessary item to me and I don't feel like not buying it has ever hurt me. On the flip side I never felt like it hurt me either.

Please add something in it for end game involving gold spent. I love BTN and I want badly to keep it for end game but I don't ever see myself keeping it in an optimal end game build.

The bonuses it provides are not needed for end game and not having them does not neccessarily hurt you, but having this end game will most likely not be optimal.

You say you don't want people to feel forced into getting this item, I'm here to say that I will feel forced not to have this item end game which is when you will have put all that work into those stacks. It's ok if you want it to be a utility item but there is not enough TEAM utility for it to be a truly end game item.

So please either add an extra gold cost for even a small upgrade intended only for very end game or change the 14 stack buff to be more team oriented utility if it has to be utility. I want to wear my BTN that I worked hard on, not sell it to get a GA or even wards.


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THUNDERMINE

Member

09-11-2013

The bonetooth is weak. It needs to have the stacks spread out longer to benefit it early mid and late game. EX: 4 stacks 8 stacks 12 stacks 16 stacks 20 stacks....... Naturally make the buff per tier something worth wanting to kill for.

At 20 stacks rengar should basically be a pro veteran hunter and be granted a super bola buff or get 25 armor + 25 magic resist until death or stacks are lost. Or at 20 stacks give him his old q train strength back.


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Troy242621

Senior Member

09-11-2013

Honestly, knowing he can still be an assassin, I doubt there is anything Riot can do to my cat without me still jungling him. He's just that "One champion," that I'll always use, regardless of strength.

I have a few thoughts to improve the jungling aspect. I think it can be as easy as addressing WHY does Jungle Rengar NOT work right now. Honestly, we're all looking for an easy solution. It's not ONE PROBLEM that Rengar has that makes his jungle weak. He has several contributing factors in no particular order, so here goes.

[CENTER]Rengar's Sustainability is Poor
Rengar is pretty prone to being counterjungled (Ironic because he becomes the prey, and his ultimate's cooldown early on is incredible if he wants to hunt them down), because while he's a decent enough duelist (And quite excellent early on), he takes a wallop from the jungle. He has low defenses, the worst HP/5 in the League AND his W has taken several nerfs. If he doesn't get a Smiteless first buff, he runs the risk of dying to the second buff (This is with the appropriate Flat Armor Runes and Machete 5 pot start). So, it's established he cannot take much punishment, but the pain doesn't end here. His sustain AFTER being hurt is also poor, and his W doesn't cover much. Even if you include his W as part of his "HP/5," his sustain is still on the low end. This means he will be almost CONSTANTLY wounded while in the jungle, which leads to the next point.

Rengar's Ganks are Heavily Restricted
This one is easy enough. After clearing, he MAY or MAY NOT be able to gank. Now, that's a problem, because junglers can be made or broken by their early game. Being at the right place at the right time is pivotal, but not only must Rengar predict where an opportunity may arise, he may just not have enough left in the health tank to go for a gank. However, this early game dependence is standard for every jungler, and being a fragile jungler with low sustain isn't NECESSARILY damning. However, he's an EARLY GAME champion. This means, he is an early game snowballer. Hell, he has an item devoted to snowballing. This means he is even MORE dependent on snowballing. But wait, IT GETS WORSE. He can't gank mid lane very well at all, since the bushes just don't extend far enough most of the time. This leaves top and bot lanes. However, the bushes he'll try to leap from are frequently warded. He can work around it, but being limited to top and bot lanes is very restricting, and it leaves him to farm the jungle despite the previous weaknesses (Early game dependence, weak sustain) and fall behind, risk the bushes or go for a lane gank. What's more? His objective control suffers due to several of these aspects. His ultimate helps with steals, but DAMN does he have a hard time securing sometimes.


He Doesn't Fit the Jungle Meta
The meta is a tanky jungler with plenty of CC. Rengar's build is very expensive. On a jungler's salary, it puts even more emphasis on his early game which is already questionable in the Jungle due to the previously outlined issues. However, his troubles are still not over. His only CC is a decaying slow, or sacrifice a huge amount of his burst for a short snare. He is likely to want to take the kill, and if LANERS get the kill, they can use the advantage to take an even LARGER advantage over their enemy when they're back, which is obviously snowballing their lead. Rengar isn't able to offer that as easily.[/CENTER]

All in all, he puts all his eggs into one basket, and that one basket has a bunch of strings attached. There's more to it, but this sums up the largest contributing factors that ultimately renders the CURRENT Rengar's jungle pretty weak.


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Canstainer

Senior Member

09-12-2013

Im the only how thinks bola strike as projectile sucks?
I mean, the cool thing about bola strike when you chase (never fails), iknow is a short range, but never fails...


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Canstainer

Senior Member

09-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canstainer View Post
Im the only how thinks bola strike as projectile sucks?
I mean, the cool thing about bola strike when you chase (never fails), iknow is a short range, but never fails...
maybe dual skill on this ?. short range to never miss, and double clik to get more range ?


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devries5th

Junior Member

09-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canstainer View Post
maybe dual skill on this ?. short range to never miss, and double clik to get more range ?
I don't think that would be effective. As a rengar main I am starting to think that the skillshot bola will actually be a good thing. Giving rengar some over wall slows and being a boss like he is.


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Mr Sir Lebowski

Senior Member

09-12-2013

Let's not forget that the range and importantly duration are being increased

There are definitely weaknesses to it being a skillshot but there are also strengths. I believe that it being a skillshot will actually be a buff but mainly for jungle Rengar only because they are giving it longer range. This is going to make ganking mid lane much more viable pre 6.

As far as laning Rengar being able to throw this skillshot into brush or over walls and other things you can do with skillshots as opposed to targetted clicking will be a strength. Ultimately despite it having longer range it will be a nerf to his harrass because of creep blocking, at the same time though some players depending on their play style may be able to use that longer range to last hit better when behind or harrass better from brush due to longer range.

It will also have increased damage so we'll have to wait and see. Overall though I think it will be a buff.


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R U Fukn Nuts

Junior Member

09-12-2013

Actually I think this is a fair question since the changes are quite imminent: How is his ferocity generation going to behave with 2 unreliable sources of ferocity gains as opposed to one currently on live? (His roar is only allowed to hit no targets for the heal-saves case I guess)
Wouldn't it be better to give ferocity on cast instead? Additionally it would boost his jungling so it is not as difficult to survive the first camp as it is now on live. (I know it would cause superb amount of cheese lane bolas but then again they aren't now sure to hit, not to mention you can always tweak the base damages to get a higher /level scalings (so it retains original power at rank 5, of course) ).


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Canstainer

Senior Member

09-12-2013

True, bola strike as projectile in the jungle, use to kills some creeps uhmm
yeah you can even hit the wrong target in front of you. Same when ganking some target in the middle of some creeps ...


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devries5th

Junior Member

09-12-2013

if the damage is increase you can really harass when they are under their turret. e them and just spam laugh. Also, thinking of langar if you see a gank coming you could slow them just enough while staying out of their range for example a shen taunt or a vi dash or a nasus slow. If you could slow them before they got their own cc off on you i think that would be great.