A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Volttekka

Senior Member

07-16-2013

One thing I've always wondered: what was the reasoning behind Rengar being manaless in the first place?
In my opinion, most of his issues are linked entirely to his lack of mana, and the issues that not being mana dependent brings.


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Capitan Rick

Senior Member

07-16-2013

After reading the posts it appears the majority of the toxicity is from disengage engage potential, a rengar who doesnt want to fight is uncatchable and a rengar who ults in is all in for a kill with no escapes. The problem appears to be that he needs a disengage other thanhis ult
s


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SeriousBread

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I personally think rengar needs to be either this guy who outputs all of his damage right away, or a fighter. He's a hunter, always looking for a bigger challenge. One thought that comes to mind is maybe do something like irelia's stun/slow (the name escapes me). Instead of doing a basic effect on the ferocity bonus, maybe do something different if they have more or less ad then you? Let's use his Q. Say if when you have ferrocity and they have more AD then you, rengar takes some of thier AD and gives it to him. Or if they have less AD, it applies a minor slow.


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Oxygen Free

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I tend not to chime in, and I don't have time to read every single question.

First question:
I don't enjoy playing Rengar in the jungle, it kills camps very slowly. He has to be standing near a bush to be ganked, and bola shot which is the bread and butter of ganking isn't what you level up if you plan on clearing anything quickly.

Improvements I'd like:
I think the problem is just with Rengar's spells themselves, having only one spell that does piddly damage unless you build AP to groups makes clear time slow. He's too much based on doing one big burst, he needs some sustained damage.

Question two:
I honestly think the defensive bonus is fairly worthless, a 3 seconds and the low rate makes it somewhat unwanted. Its good vs sustained damage enemies, but with it having a low up percentage, it really just turned into some extra damage + more stacks.
If you build him as a tank its really handy, but then you do no damage and can easily be ignored.

I'd honestly like to see it be used as an aggressive spell, his shout should strike fear into others. So for lets say 3 seconds enemy has less armor. This would help with the sustained damage, but make the burst worse.

Final Question:
First I'd like to say I never build this item, as an item that scales with K/D/A its just too risky early on, and pointless to get late game. You have a choice of an item that might be useful, and one that will be. The choice is an easy one to make.

I'd be more encouraged to get it though if it had some more useful stats, just gonna throw a few ideas out:
-Move speed % while not in hostile vision (jungle, minions, enemy heroes) - make it take a few seconds to activate or deactivate, but it would make him scary in the jungle.
-Decrease Cooldown on the ult based on number of kills - this would be something extra like, have over 20 stacks lets make your a scary mo-fo
-Move speed bonus after leaping - This would honestly be a better base "stat" rather then AD. Even if you get 0 stacks, or just bought it, it will be a useful item for helping with ganks if someone isn't right beside a bush.

Other changes - Make it so it doesn't lose stacks past a number. like lets say you max it out, you won't go below the lower tier. Late game, if you get targeted a lot, the item reverts back to being a hunk of junk if you never managed to get it close to max, it would make it more of a permeant buff. That being said though, the bonuses couldn't be anything crazy large.


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Lheureux

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitan Rick View Post
After reading the posts it appears the majority of the toxicity is from disengage engage potential, a rengar who doesnt want to fight is uncatchable and a rengar who ults in is all in for a kill with no escapes. The problem appears to be that he needs a disengage other thanhis ult
s
I've found this to be the case as well. That is unless I'm in the bushes.

I really like the concept of rengar but only having a single way to engage / disengage and repeatedly spamming q on engage is boring.

I'd like to see the cooldowns for qwe increased, but have the effects last longer, while making the cooldown for thrill of the hunt go down, and take the range of the jump down with it as well. I'd also like to see his base movement speed and health regen bumped up a bit. Cats after all have 9 lives and are incredibly agile/fast.


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Mr Hangloose

Member

07-16-2013

Did I miss something? You're saying that his ultimate gives him a same split pushing experience and you're increasing his duration and moviment speed bonus?

I'm honestly confused.


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Mr Hangloose

Member

07-16-2013

I meant "safe" not "same". Cant edit the post on my phone.


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IcyTor44

Member

07-16-2013

To answer each in order
1. Yes Rengar should still be a jungler, it makes sense for the character.
2. I never thought Battle Roar should have had defensive stats. If it could be changed into something that would still help him in fights id be all for it.
3. Yes having non stat values would be much more interesting


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slowmanrunning

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Senior Member

07-16-2013

Problem with Rengar has always been that he's impossible to kite around bushes, too easy to kite away from bushes.

A suggestion is having Ferocity Bonus: Savagery make him leap, regardless of whether he's in a bush or not. Doing this, and taking the leap away from his ult, he can gap close without his ultimate and without bushes (granted, he'll need 5 ferocity to do so).

With this change, his ult doesn't need a leap since Q already provides it. His ult is meant to help him gap close outside of the jungle, so it could provide something else, like a stealth followed by a 5 second buff (think twitch's stealth) that causes all his basic attacks to make him leap about half his normal jump distance (200-300 ish distance).

Ergo, by toning down the damage on Savagery and its double casting, but making him harder to kite, he will get more out of the attack speed buff granted by the spells, making him less bursty. His ultimate would make him no longer so easy to kite outside of the jungle, and his damage lowering would make him no longer as scary inside the jungle.

The last thing is that battle roar providing defensive stats doesn't make much sense for a character designed to hunt down prey. It feels like it should be some sort of offensive boost, and maybe even an aura that grants half to allies, like Warwick or Gangplank's abilities. Maybe have it grant a buff that gives +5/10/15/20% movespeed (2.5/5/7.5/10% for allies) while chasing an enemy (ala vayne passive), as well as a flat AD, movespeed, or attackspeed passive to Rengar

These changes would:
1) grant rengar a bit of team utility, which is good for the jungle role
2) make rengar more consistent in and out of the jungle
3) make rengar more fun to play, since repeatedly leaping is by far the most awesome part of playing him


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themortalgod02

Junior Member

07-16-2013

I love Rengar as a toon but I always felt his skillset was somewhat disjointed from his lore. Rengar is supposed to be a deadly feline hunter where as he as become much more of a kamikaze that finds a target and suicides into it to bring it down. I think slightly redesigning his kit to be more of a predator that strikes then darts back into the shadows would be a more interesting and flavourful design. Here are my ideas for changing his kit. (leaving out numbers as they will obviously need to be tweaked for balance):

Unseen Predator (passive) No change.

Savagery (Q)

Functions essentially as it does now. It is a great DPS burst mechanic that fits with Rengar's lore. The only change I would make is to ensure that a triple Q is not possible.

Predatory Instincts (W)

Activate to reveal nearby enemies on the map (exactly how his current ult does) for X seconds. While Predatory Instincts is active Rengar is able to leap to his target.

Ferocity bonus: When leaping Rengar jumps with such force that he briefly knocks the target to the ground slowing the target's movement speed by X% for Y seconds.

Bola Strike (E)

Performs exactly as it does currently.

Return To The Shadows (R)

Rengar attempts to disengage becoming stealthed for X seconds (a short stealth, similar to wukong's). While stealthed Rengar may reactivate this ability to leap to nearby grass that is within Y range.

If Rengar activate "Return To The Shadows" within 5 seconds of killing a champion he will drag the slain champion's corpse with him. If Rengar is able to return to a bush before "Return to The Shadows" ends he may spend up to 3 seconds consuming his prey. Rengar heals Z% and gains 1 ferocity per second while consuming his prey. Any damage taken during this time ends the effect. If Rengar is able to spend the full 3 seconds eating he also gains an additional trophy stack (if he has bonetooth necklace)

--

So ya, it is a fairly radical change but I think it is much more effective creating a feel that Rengar is an ultimate predator that leaps onto his target, slays it, and drags it back to his lair. I wanted to decouple the detection mechanic from the stealth one so that they can be used more strategically to zone his opponents and make engagement decisions. I also wanted to give Rengar a more reliable gap closer that didn't depend on a long ultimate cooldown or terrain. Finally, I wanted to make him more about striking quickly and disengaging than in being a sustainable dueller so felt the old W was working against this playstyle.

A pretty radical idea, and obviously will need tweaking to not be OP but just my 2 cents.