A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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RadiantWings

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Senior Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norr1N View Post
Also, any word on alternative build paths for BTN for players who choose not to jungle Rengar? Like a different recipe such as Longsword + Rejuvenation Beads, or Ruby Crystal, which give alternative stats or another passive that's not jungle-oriented? Maye a Warmogs/Banshee's style passive. Would it be possible for Rengar to consume this item like Eleisa's Miracle after getting 14 Trophies?
The problem is, they don't want Bonetooth to be a must buy. Even having the remote possibility of internalizing it for 30+ AD and whatever passives makes it an auto-buy for any Rengar.

That's why I think Bonetooth needs a ground-up mechanical rework, not tweaks to its current function.


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Ginrai Enerjak

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Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
W Mechanic is back to Armor and MR from AD Reduction - this hurts his early clear, but we decided that it's actually pretty necessary for him especially now that he takes slightly longer to kill.
Weren't you against him having the Armor and MR because it's just straight defense?

Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you would look over what I had mentioned earlier and am quoting below. I do not want to see backdoor Rengar make a return, and as long as you keep stealth on that ultimate, that's what is likely to happen. I would like for you to make it clear to me your thoughts on this so that if you continue on your course, I at least know why you believe that this is lacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginrai Enerjak View Post
A few things:

1) Wouldn't the differing ranges be "ultimate"? I assumed from reading the user's post that only the first leap after activating your ultimate would be the only one with increased range. Therefore, it would be just as if you are using a ultimate that can have differing ranges.

2) Did you change Rengar's leap to act like Shunpo? His leap is not instant, so there is plenty of time to react. The only time that Rengar's leap is a problem is when he is stealthed, and that's because you don't know where he is, so you're not watching his character model for signs. Which brings me to my third point:

3) I really hate that you put the stealth back on. All this will do is allow him to run away with his tail between his legs extremely successfully (something a Lion should not be doing), allow him to backdoor and get away every time due to stealth, and make it harder for people to react to his leap which you just described as something hard for you to see coming when he is visible. Running away from engagements and backdoor attempts thanks to stealth is Shaco's thing. Please don't make it Rengar's as well.

With the suggestion that Bork Hammer 40k made, you could easily get rid of the stealth, since just by having more ferocity when he activates his ult will bolster his ability to engage in ganks and teamfights. Plus, this wouldn't be something you would feel you needed to wait for 5 stacks for, because you would activate your ult whenever you were confident you could close the distance. And you could easily make some sort of buff or particle that tells people how many stacks he had when he activated his ult. Something like: "Rengar's next leap will consume all of his tremendous leap stacks, increasing the range of the leap by a number for each stack".

Please don't make the mistake of putting Stealth back on Rengar. Please consider what I have said. I believe that with your previous iteration of the ult and stacks giving leap range rather than duration that you could have a great, balanced ult for Rengar.

Please let me know if you have any concerns, and I will be glad to address them. If I can clear up any doubts you have about this solution, the better.

-Ginrai Enerjak
-Ginrai Enerjak


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MasterWaheed

Senior Member

08-28-2013

I play Rengar alot and im curious with why they are taking out the stealth from his ult. That is why Rengar is fun. Also why in the world put 20% damage to minions increase on his bone tooth. To me they want to cage Rengar in the jungle..... I remember asking Riot for buffs to rengar but after looking at these changes just keep him how he is .

Just curious, does anybody see benefits from these changes? Will this make Rengar stronger like OP( i mean OP like super fun)?


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RadiantWings

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08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Quick Update:

Xelnath played him in the jungle and got like 1 bajillion kills (I think the final end score was 15/7/8?) building BTN, BT, Trinity Force, Infinity Edge and Berserker's Greaves. They ended up losing to a few misplays, but so far judging by his in-game performance (and the screams of 'oh god' from the other members of Live Design) it seems like he's still 100% capable of dealing damage.

W Mechanic is back to Armor and MR from AD Reduction - this hurts his early clear, but we decided that it's actually pretty necessary for him especially now that he takes slightly longer to kill.

Sprint/Stealth ult is working out pretty well, going to play him myself later today from a Toplane position and begin working on that since jungle seems like it's working fine (insofar as a bruiser-utility guy with strong laneganks or as an assassin), so i want to make sure that Toplane Rengar is still pretty strong.
Have you considered buffing some of Rengar's abilities to where they were pre-nerf, or even adding some creative AD ratios to some abilities like Battle Roar so that they aren't overbearing earlygame, but not useless late game.

Off the top of my head:

Have Savagery reverted to 6 second cooldown at all ranks, perhaps even going down to 5 seconds:
Savagery was given an 8 second cooldown because during the time it was nerfed, it was *incredibly* overbearing to have Rengar come into lane with 3 Ferocity and be able to level 1 cheese you 12 seconds later.

However, now that Savagery's base damage is coming down *and* now that level 1 cheese is impossible with the upcoming Q train changes/jungle timing change, there's no reason for the cooldown to be this high. With a low cooldown, consistent aspd boost, Rengar would be able to clear the jungle much faster over his current, somewhat slow pace.

Revert some of Battle Roar's damage nerfs and make the resistances scale with AD:
No more doubling up with Empowered effects means that Battle Roar no longer needs to be balanced around being double tapped, allowing the base damage to go back up along with some cooldown reduction.
As for the Defenses scaling with AD, I'm not asking for a Riven type of scaling shield, I'm asking for something like 10/15/20/25/30 (+15% of AD.) Scaling the damage off of AD would make double-tap empowered Roar overbearing in lane (again) and making the base defense higher might turn Rengar back into a tanky splitpush bot. By level 18 with Rengar's base AD it would be 45, 2 higher than its current value, while with 300 AD, it'd give 75 defenses, only 15 higher than his original value. It'd require him to take maybe a thousand damage to be worth more than Riven's shield scaling after natural resistances and doesn't negate harass. It would also give Rengar a compelling reason to use Empowered Roar later on in skirmishes rather than Q train all the time.


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ackermaNipples

Member

08-28-2013

Okay so I saw this on surrenderat20.net so I thought I'd contribute but I also haven't read any of the ideas because I prefer not to start from page 376. Here is my concept of how rengar should be reworked. In a way it offers those possible counters if the person playing Rengar were to fail so he isn't a complete face roll champ like Taric that has almost no counter action abilities.

Rengar.

Passive: Gains bonus stats whenever he is in a bush, which persists up to 3-4? seconds after leaving said bush. (These stats can be attack damage, armor or mr?)
My thoughts "By removing his jump in early game, it completely prevents Rengar from abusing his farming advantage over other melee champions and slightly nerfs his early game. He can only use these bonus stats if the enemy champion decides to enter the bush. It can be use for bush whacking or a possible turn around if rengar is fleeing from an enemy and gains these extra stats to help him win a fight or a trade."

Q: Similar to his old Q with similar stats however...
At 5 ferocity, he gains a small movement speed and attack speed boost to help him trade better if he auto attacks with the Q proc. This will help Rengar trade better since I think we should remove his sustaining ability from his W. The idea for giving mvspd and aspd is similar to Kat's E and W. Whenever she decides to go in she gains bonus resistances and a W to help her take as much reduced damage as possible. Where my idea is to give him movespeed to leave the situation quickly or attack speed to continue the assault.

W: No longer grants armor & mr. Instead lowers his enemie's stats and attack damage.
At 5 ferocity, Rengar steals the stats (just like trundle) from the enemy champion.
I didn't like the concept of a manaless champion having infinite sustain as long as he has time to use his E to reach 5 ferocity stacks. I wanted to change his W into something that would give him more fighting or resistance ability. That way when a player was playing Rengar. He would have to think carefully about what skill he should use to consume 5 ferocity stacks. Similar as Kha'zix's position where a player would have to decide which ability he should level up first.

E: His E (as I've seen from earlier posts) is a skill shot. If it lands it snares the enemy, if missed it becomes a trap (like nidalee's traps)and if they are stepped on, it would tangle the enemy's pathing and slow them down for a short duration.
At 5 ferocity, Rengar would instead shoot 3 bolas in a similar direction to twisted fate's)

R: Gained at level 1, give Rengar a chance to hop onto enemies or minions by consuming Ferocity.

5 ferocity at level 1
3 ferocity at level 6
1 ferocity at level 11
1 ferocity at level 16 + another hop for free within 3 seconds at level 16. (To help him with late game?)

I didn't like Rengar's ultimate because the fact that it could reveal enemies in an area, give him movement speed and grant stealth at such an early level...made it so he had a huge safety net at level 6 in the top lane. It wasn't a guaranteed safety net but it was practically like Teemo's shrooms which makes it incredibly difficult to gank his lane unless provided there a pink ward to clear the shroom's pathing. By adding a cost towards hopping it makes the player think about whether or not he wants to use 5 ferocity to farm minions or use 5 ferocity to get within range of an enemy champion and lose that 5 ferocity to burst with his Q or lower his enemy's stats with W.

These ideas probably have plenty of flaws in them since Riot is the master discovering holes in ideas and concepts, but I figured I'd contribute (...without reading any of these posts) and hope that maybe it would spark an idea or help people brainstorm new ideas on a new Rengar.


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Snowsef

Member

08-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norr1N View Post
One thing I don't really like about the current ultimate, is that it's just used to initiate on someone, and has no persistant effect past that first leap. Will we be able to retain the vision/MS during Hunt/Sprint for the remainder of the duration like Yi for instance, even once we start attacking, and still be able to switch to Stalk/Prowl (which will remove the MS bonus)? Maybe halt Ferocity generation after the leap attack, but retain the MS bonus and vision till the ultimate expires? To break it down -

1. Activating R puts you in Hunt mode - granting MS bonus, vision, leap access, Ferocity gain
2. Attacking consumes leap, and halts Ferocity gain. Retain MS bonus and vision till ult expires
3. Can activate Stalk whether you attack or not, if done before ult expires, but after a certain duration. Removes MS bonus, but stealths instantly and retains vision, whilst restoring Ferocity gain/leap if already consumed/used to attack during Hunt

Both Hunt and/or Stalk could be Empowered separately based on the Ferocity requirements for the Empowered effect at the time of cast.

Also, will Bola be able to proc on-hit effects and/or reveal the target hit?

Finally, a couple trophy ideas that have sticked with me throughout this thread -

Gains vision of nearby neutral monsters within 1000 range (does not reveal champions)
Gains a non-decaying leap (regardless if in brush) whenever he achieves maximum Ferocity, consumed on the next autoattack (one of this type of leap granted per rotation of maximum Ferocity)
Read this guy's post, he has some good ideas^

What I took from this is that either before or after leaping from hunt you can activate stalk to stealth (as long as the duration of his ult hasn't worn out). This would give him a bit of survivability so he can exit and reenter teamfights.


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Ailwuful2

Senior Member

08-28-2013

Yo Scarizard, I just wanted to chip in and say, wasn't his stealth detrimental to counter playing him? What you're doing with Rengar seems to me like he'll come off too strong... again.


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HPfunman

Member

08-28-2013

Ok so I have a crazy idea, but maybe it has enough logic to it. You guys don't like live rengar because he insta-kills with almost no warning and split pushes crazy fast. Well, what if the live q just doesn't grant bonus attack speed and the new bola strike and ulti stay as is, except the ulti doesn't consume ferocity?

Think about this for a sec:

1) The q change means he can't split push turrets as well because he has no attack speed steroid on it, but he still does descent damage to turrets just from the base damage so the play style isn't completely removed, it's just nerfed quite a bit. This also allows for a slight amount of more power to be put into the ability's base damage. (for jungle purposes, maybe have the q deal bonus damage to monsters so as to preserve his damage output in the jungle?)

2) Since the ulti doesn't consume ferocity, triple q's can still be pulled off, but you have to do it while not stealthed since the time that the first empowered q lasts is less time than the window to stealth. This creates a trade off for rengar players. If you want to triple q a target, you cannot stealth because by the time the second part of the ult is available, the first empowered q's window of use has passed. This removes a large amount of the toxitivity of the current assisin style rengar because enemies can react better. I also suggest slightly nerfing the speed boost to further allow time to react to an assassination attempt. This really solidifies the high skill cap concept of triple q since it would be so much harder to pull off against a competent team with the lack of stealth and less move speed.

3)If you still want to jump out of stealth like live rengar, you can't triple q a target. This makes the second part of his ult more for catching enemies off guard and a more bruiser style rengar. He can try to make the enemy team panic because he appears out of nowhere, causing a kind of pseudo cc from the chaos that erupts in that brief moment of panic during which he can deal damage but not instakill the enemy adc. He forces the team to focus him during that time, buying his teammates time to do damage.

I think that this simple tweak to your ideas at riot will help preserve the current rengar while removing toxitivity and adding more counterplay

TL;DR If rengar doesn't stealth, he can triple q. If rengar stealths, he can't triple q.

Edit: I realized that I forgot to state why I didn't want his q to grant 3 ferocity stacks instead of 1 (hint: new combos are even more op).

1) at level 3, rengar can triple q by having 5 stacks, consuming them with an empowered q, hit normal qwe granting 3+1+1 = 5 ferocity, and then empowered q again. That's even more power at early levels than live rengar has.
full combo: EMPq, q, w, e, EMPq

2) at level 6 rengar can QUADRA Q if he has 5 ferocity stacks. He ults, presses q, generates 5 ferocity, jumps on a target consuming first EMPq, he has 5 stacks so he can EMPq again, then he can qwe like usual, granting yet another 5 ferocity, and thus another EMPq.
full combo: EMPq (no aa), r (wait for 5 more stacks), EMPq, qwe, EMPq.

3) At level 3, rengar also has infinite sustain. All he needs is 1 minion to get from 0 ferocity stacks to 5 (qwe) and then use EMPw for a free heal. I have to say that that is just stupid strong and should not be possible.
full combo: q,w,e, EMPw


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Grey Verve

Member

08-28-2013

W staying as Armor/MR buff feels off to me. AD debuff W fits Rengar very well thematically. So is there anyway to make the AD Debuff W work? Or can it be changed to be some sort of offensive ability rather than some sort of temporary "spirit armor"?


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TheRogueSkittle

Junior Member

08-28-2013

Doesn't his new ult give ferocity stacks as well or was this completely removed?