A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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The Dunkmaster

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
What about for how much ferocity is consumed, if the target is leapt on then it bleeds for X amount of seconds, or another idea could be that for X stacks of ferocity consumed, the target bleeds scaling upwards say like

1 ferocity - 25
2 ferocity - 50
3 ferocity - 75
4 ferocity - 100
5 ferocity - 125

This could have around a 0.3-0.5 scaling so it isn't too strong early.

Or you could add a scaling factor onto his leap depending on how much ferocity is used.

Something like -
1 ferocity - 10%
2 ferocity - 15%
3 ferocity - 20%
4 ferocity - 25%
5 ferocity - 30%



Another idea is that he gains a certain amount of offensive stats per ferocity consumed.

1 ferocity - 5 AD
2 ferocity - 10 AD
3 ferocity - 15 AD
4 ferocity - 20 AD
5 ferocity - 25 AD


Another couple of ideas I want to throw out -

What about, upon leaving stealth, due to his no escape (All-in, kill a target and die) maybe he could get some defensive stats like 25 MR and Armor for 5 seconds upon leaving stealth.


My final idea (So far) could be that for every ferocity consumed, the target he next leaps on is revealed for X seconds.

1 ferocity - 2
2 ferocity - 4
3 ferocity - 6
4 ferocity - 8
5 ferocity - 10



Just some ideas i'm throwing out, the ideas with his ult look really good but can you tell us any changes on the rest of his kit if any have been made since the last iteration?


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DontChangeRengar

Junior Member

08-24-2013

Ah dangnammit only I would make a post with suggestions as the last post on the previous page!

Scar I hope you don't let me get buried again !


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Norr1N

Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.
Hi Scarizard. About this idea, I have a few questions in terms of how it functions.

- Is the Stalk stage of the ultimate instant? As it seems like there's going to be a very short delay between Hunt -> Stalk activation, possibly similar duration to the Live stealth delay (1-3s). This is something which would be ideal, as he slows right down in Stalk.

- If Rengar attacks during Hunt, does he retain the Vision/MS bonus for the remainder of the ultimate's duration, and can he still activate Stalk? I assume he doesn't continue to generate Ferocity if he attacks.

- In which case, does the ultimate run on a timer? E.g. 20 seconds standard, Hunt consumes 1 second in real-time, Stalk consumes 2 seconds for every 1 second that would normally be consumed.

- If Rengar can activate Stalk after attacking during Hunt, does he start to generate Ferocity again (like Kha'Zix cloaking to reactivate his passive) and/or can he leap again? This would be interesting to see in action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
Possible ideas for an Empowered ultimate bonus:
- Rengar retains the MS bonus during Stalk
- Alternatively, Rengar can stealth during Hunt until he attacks (but reduces initial burst from Q stacking)
- Rengar can activate Stalk again after attacking from initial Stalk
- Rengar becomes immune to CC during the duration of the ultimate or either Hunt/Stalk
- Rengar takes reduced damage
- Stalk is undetectable to pink/Oracles
Also, about making his Bola into a skillshot. What are your thoughts on allowing it to reveal the target hit? Is it possible this could make it into the final build? In addition, to make it less risky to use when Empowered and a more viable option, could it be turned into a point and click ability (retaining the range) only for when it is Empowered?

Something that really bugs me about the current Rengar, is the fact that his Empowered W heal doesn't scale with anything. This makes the heal more and more unnoticeable on tanky builds and not worth the 5 Ferocity to heal a relatively miniscule amount. I understand the lack of AP scaling, but why not a fixed % of maximum health? In addition, Rengar's Vision could also reveal neutral monsters such as Baron/Dragon/Red/Blue to fit thematically with his mastery of the jungle.

Finally, what do you think about Empowering his passive by allowing it to be usable outside brush and non-decaying whenever he reaches full stacks of Ferocity (doesn't consume the Ferocity, just lets him leap on his next attack only like his Ult currently does)? This would be great for his pre-6 ganks, and would decouple his gapcloser from his ultimate so he wouldn't need to rely on his ultimate for an effective gank. It would, however, mean that he would need to wait for 5 stacks of Ferocity after he ults to gain access to his leap outside brush.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
My take on a Ferocity Bonus

"Upper Hand" or "First Strike" ~ for each point of Ferocity consumed upon casting Thrill of the Hunt, Rengar's next basic attack against an enemy Champion deals bonus 2/2.5/3 %Max Health damage


^So, this effectively equates to Rank 1: 2/4/6/8/10 %max; Rank 2: 2.5/5/7.5/10/12.5 %max; Rank 3: 3/6/9/12/15 %max

^^It may require some minor damage tweaks in his Kit, but I think it fits his Character/Playstyle/Theme quite nicely (and scales in a way that a player doesn't feel like they have to wait until they have 5 stacks to Ultimate)


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
My take on a Ferocity Bonus

"Upper Hand" or "First Strike" ~ for each point of Ferocity consumed upon casting Thrill of the Hunt, Rengar's next basic attack against an enemy Champion deals bonus 2/2.5/3 %Max Health damage


^So, this effectively equates to Rank 1: 2/4/6/8/10 %max; Rank 2: 2.5/5/7.5/10/12.5 %max; Rank 3: 3/6/9/12/15 %max

^^It may require some minor damage tweaks in his Kit, but I think it fits his Character/Playstyle/Theme quite nicely (and scales in a way that a player doesn't feel like they have to wait until they have 5 stacks to Ultimate)
EDIT: if that's too OP, what about per-point scaling Armor Penetration against his chosen "victim" (target of his first basic attack) for a flat duration (X seconds)...


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Thrill of the Hunt CD 110/85/60 seconds

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining 30/50/70% movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions for 15 seconds. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a 3 seconds (full ferocity should be reached by this time), Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) (5 seconds or the remaining duration of the ultimate that is under 5 seconds) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.


when renagr activates R it consumes his current ferocity causing him to mark his 1st target struck, revealing it and allowing rengar to endlessly leap to that target for 1 (1)/1.25 (2)/1.5(3)/1.75(4)/2(5 ferocity) seconds

this gives rengar the 'jumpy knifecat feel' without being op because he can still be CCed and outdistanced for the rejumping but this makes him able to better focus on his selected prey


edit:
passive if rengar kills the marked target while the mark is active or within 3 seconds of the mark fading he becomes stealthed and gains unseen predator for 2 seconds (does not reapply marking effect) or until he performs an offensive action


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
EDIT: if that's too OP, what about per-point scaling Armor Penetration against his chosen "victim" (target of his first basic attack) for a flat duration (X seconds)...

we dont want rengar to get bonus damage from this effect because then it effects his normal non ult damage concepts liek the normal damage of his base ad, Q W E damage, and even the utility effects that they give like attack speed, slow/root, exc.


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Arance

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.
Bonus speed: +3% movement speed per stack that only lasts 'a few seconds' until the Stalk option appears.

Bonus leap range. (Iffy on this one though.)

Bonus armor and magic resist: +5 armor and magic resist per stack for the duration of the ult.

Bonus effect: This is probably a bit too complicated of an effect to add onto this already mechanic loaded ult, but... After activating the ult, Rengar's next Q (or E?) will deal 20% of its damage per stack, up to 100% at max, in an AoE around the target.


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Weirding ways

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Absolutely loving the proposed changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.
Don't know how hard/easy it would be to implement, but how about making the amount of ferocity stacks consumed determine the range of the vision of enemies he gets around him during his ult? Would certainly come in handy in some situations, helping him find his prey or to scout, but is in no ways 'needed' if he already has a target and knows where he is, or just wants to use the ult to escape, or whatever he might be using it for.


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PhoenixSlayer13

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey dudes, sorry for going mostly silent this week - had a lot to get done and i don't like to post when i know i won't have time to follow up with y'all (this is why last week's post came on a Friday evening so i had all weekend to keep talking)

So i'm likely going to format this horrendously because i'm at home and don't have a screencap of the tooltip, but here's the new idea for Rengar's ultimate:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.

Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
I really like this iteration. Best of both worlds.