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A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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PodunkTheMighty

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
lightdragoon88:
The ult still generates fury.


It just takes away the one you have at the time of activating it for staying in ult longer.
Right, so you can't do the combo. The best you can do is R->Empowered Q->Q->W->E.


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Entheos Geon

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Raiyn:
Stalker.

Pridestalker.

Stalkers stalk things.. Can't stalk well without at least some aspect of being stealthy >>>>stealth.


Real cats stalk things without being invisible. You don't need complete invisibility to be stealthy.

If we take all definitions into account, stalking can simply mean "to pursue".


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Borand

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
Edited -- Post below
First of all, I've got to say that I responded to every single thing you said in your post, while you altered mine to your ease. Bypassing that, I'll once more respond to you.

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
Its far more then just 'shifted'. There is a power budget, as you might know.

It's not far, but it is shifted. A power budget exists, and I agree. this is why live/balance teams exists.

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
Go look around to other champions in the game, none of them have three auto attack modifiers. [...]

Wrong, there's Udyr and he is a great champion. Also, how the F is this kit I proposed a kit with 3 auto attack modifiers? It's got 2 of them, first one is Q which tears the enemies armor and W that is your steroid at the same time. You can consider E a mark, since that's how it functions.
You know which other champions have 2 auto-attack modifiers and are super-successful? Here:
Jax, Lee Sin, Shaco, Twisted Fate, Twitch, Udyr, Vayne, Vi, Xin Zhao (could say 3 of them), Nautilus, Jayce (3 of them actually).

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
[...]Do you know why? Because they are either ridiculously worthless, or completely break the champion. All you would have to do is build 1-2 AD/AS items, and suddenly you scale so well that nothing can stop you. Not to mention you scale so ridiculously well into end game that you won't NEED abilities, you will just 3 shot people with your auto attacks.

Do you really ignore balance? This is the second time you are doing a baseless generalization.
Also, have you seen Kha'Zix? He can build 1/2 offense 1/2 defense and he ****s on everyone, and the dude only casts spells without autoattacking that much. Same goes for Jax, that does the same thing but instead smacks you in the face half of the times, and the other half is casting skills on you.

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
BTW, if you thought Rengars damage came from auto attacks before, then your sorely mistaken. His damage comes from double Q or triple Q.[...]

Nope, you are the one mistaken. His Q is an autoattack modifier. If he didn't double Q someone, he wouldn't do the job- meaning if he didn't modify his autoattacks with a broken mechanic twice, he wouldn't do the job. Let me rephrase it as follows: If Rengar didn't use autoattacks on his target, his Q wouldn't hurt you.

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
[...]By then, your target is nearly dead, and W and E should be able to finish them off.

No comment on this one, except that it's problematic for a character to have all his damage on 1 skill for both the character, and the opponent (*Cough* *Cough* AP Yi, GP, etc)

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
Watch Only Rengar's stream sometime. By the time he gets out of the laning phase there is no need for many auto attacks, unless he is tackling a tank.

I have, I like that there's competitive Rengar players out there

Quote:
Tsuusetsu:
Ps. I'm fighting against the change, as most of the forum is, because NOBODY wants 'sustained damage in a longer fight'. They want assassinations, punishing people who are out of position.

Nope, that's you and about 50% of the Rengar playerbase (which ofc is respectable, and the number might be off). There's another 50% (if the first 50% is correct :P ) out there that likes playing tank or fighter Rengar, a part of which I am. The kit I am proposing allows for playing Rengar as an all in assassin OR fighter. It's up to you how you'll play him. I am not saying this kit is the best idea, it's just my idea of how to solve his issues and make him fun.

Problem is that I too don't know if I like the direction Scarizard is giving to Rengar, and at the same time I feel that my feedback is going to waste.
It feels like "Oh hi guys I wanna try Rengar and this is how he'll be, tell me what you think of it. [...] I see you don't like it but it's testing out well so I'm going to go on with that and let you know how he gets along. Keep on giving me feedback even though it's not going to be tested."
I am only trying to bring something better to this champion. Let's please get along, I'm willing to explain everything you want me to even if you disagree.

Peace


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Norr1N

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
PodunkTheMighty:
Right, so you can't do the combo. The best you can do is R->Empowered Q->Q->W->E.


What are you talking about? You got 5 Ferocity? Hit Q to empower your next autoattack, THEN hit R (and because you already consumed the Ferocity, get no bonus effect on the ult), wait for 5 Ferocity, then QQQ? As you'll be able to generate 3 Ferocity from an Empowered Q after the rework, you could technically get a combo of atleast 4 Q's before you hit any cooldowns, QUADRA Q.

Pre-ult Empowered Q
HIT ULT, wait for 5 Ferocity (5F)

Proc first Empowered Q, already stacked so doesn't consume current Ferocity
Proc second Empowered Q consuming 5F, granting 3F
Regular Q, now 4F
W, 5F
Empowered Q again, 0F -> 3F
E, 4F
Q after short cooldown, 5F
Empowered Q, 0F -> 3F

So it looks like even after nerfing the base damage on Q, you could potentially make up the difference over a slightly longer duration and even do MORE damage by being able to chain together the above combo. Sure it's no longer instant as would be preferred on an assassin such as Kha'Zix, but they seem to be veering Rengar towards a more fighter role with sustained damage output like Riven for example.

That's how I see the changes anyway. Not sure why they want to remove the invisibility too. If they're spreading out the damage, it means he can no longer burst as effectively with it taking longer to deal out damage from the onset, hence they already have enough time to respond. The invisibility removal will just make it so he can't even get within range anymore as they CC him from a distance. So what does Riot do? Make sure the people CC'ing him (typically AP) can deal as much damage to him as possible whilst he's a sitting duck with the nerfed W defence (which you need to be within melee range of an enemy unit to even get up). Poor kitteh, well, at least you can run fast now! Yay! /s


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Supernastee

Junior Member

08-21-2013

owned?


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Entheos Geon:
Real cats stalk things without being invisible. You don't need complete invisibility to be stealthy.

If we take all definitions into account, stalking can simply mean "to pursue".



Pff "all defintions into account" you say?


Vtr To pursue by tracking stealthily: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stalk


SIT DOWN SIR.


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Norr1N

Senior Member

08-21-2013

After carefully reviewing the changes proposed (again), as well as getting a general feel of the direction this rework seems to be heading in, the following response seems to be the most called for.

Stop butchering his kit! He's not Yi, nor is he Cougar Nid, or some housecat that goes zoom zoom. He has his own identity. He's RENGAR. The Pridestalker. Everyone is considered his prey. Changing his kit so he can only face up against AD champions such as bruisers top, but not able to get within range of an ADC or anyone with CC because they see him coming from a mile away, whilst forcing him into the jungle with his even weaker unique item that's now just a movement speed "stick"... Wtf are you guys doing? Honestly, the rework just sounds so bland. An interesting champion tamed, and forced down one path with neutered damage, so he no longer feels versatile and thrilling to play as. Kha'Zix is laughing...

So many unique and interesting ideas in this thread, and you guys go with a ****ty variation of another champions ability (or a hybrid of several). Sounds creative. Too much of a challenge to balance a new mechanic? Screw it, throw in a preexisting one. I can't be the only one who wants to hear more about the most radical ideas you've guys have thought up for Rengar? You want to remove invisibility from his kit? Then give us something new and interesting that could potentially replace it. He goes real fast now? Wow.. that's.. yeah. Great. Sounds fun. Imo something with the potential to juke would be nice.


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hoxE

Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Raiyn:
Pff "all defintions into account" you say?


Vtr To pursue by tracking stealthily: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stalk


SIT DOWN SIR.

Uh, he said it CAN mean something different not that it has to. Calm down.


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calumniateTruth

Junior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Djiimon:
This is just a personal request, but could Rengar get a little easter egg reference to Edgar Allen Poe whenever he reveals a champion classified as undead with his ultimate, since he's hearing a dead man's heart beat.


This would be a really cool idea :3 "The vulture's eye!" "Growls" " LOWDER!, LOWDER!! LOUDER!!!"


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9Point

Senior Member

08-21-2013

He sounds like yi with these changes...

I'm waiting for pounce to make him untargetable.

Just my two cents but maybe Riot should understand you can't be tanky and be an assassin and stop trying to walk that nonexistent line.... And movespeed. That's not the answer. Nonce, not ever. You've yet to put out a movespeed ability thats been balanced.