A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Shearchaos

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

As a big fan of Mr. Kitty both excited and terrified of these changes. The removal of 1/ad plvl, arm pen, and cdr doesnt seem to make up for the ability to jungle a little better. Though as long as the ms number are reasonable I see btn as a pretty nice buy.

The changes to passive/q/w/e and increased health regen (.8 was pretty painful) all seem just amazing.

The ultimate changes seem to just depend on how much movement speed rengar will be allowed to have. If it's high his ganks should be like hecarim. Which leads me to believe his numbers will be low due to lack of "counterplay" hecarim gave during his ganks. So this looks like you are just putting on a band-aid while removing what makes rengar a different champ from the rest.

So my thought on his ult is that he should be fast but not as fast as a hecarim or highlander yi. And an addition of a fear to the person leapt on (holy @#$! im getting jumped on by flippin Simba) Or a bleed or something that gives him the im playing rengar.


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Wyndrydyr

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearchaos View Post
As a big fan of Mr. Kitty both excited and terrified of these changes. The removal of 1/ad plvl, arm pen, and cdr doesnt seem to make up for the ability to jungle a little better. Though as long as the ms number are reasonable I see btn as a pretty nice buy.
Just keep in mind that Scarizard has said a million times that the numbers on BTN are basically meaningless placeholders...they'll change them however they need to. It's the mechanics they're working on first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearchaos View Post
The ultimate changes seem to just depend on how much movement speed rengar will be allowed to have. If it's high his ganks should be like hecarim. Which leads me to believe his numbers will be low due to lack of "counterplay" hecarim gave during his ganks. So this looks like you are just putting on a band-aid while removing what makes rengar a different champ from the rest.
They said 'From one end of the river to the other before the ult ends' with a full level ult, BTN stacked, and no boots.

No boots. Let me say that one more time.

One end of the river to the other. No boots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearchaos View Post
So my thought on his ult is that he should be fast but not as fast as a hecarim or highlander yi. And an addition of a fear to the person leapt on (holy @#$! im getting jumped on by flippin Simba) Or a bleed or something that gives him the im playing rengar.
I've always thought that his passive, ferocity and BTN made him more Rengar than anything else, but that's just me apparently :/


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psloan

Senior Member

08-20-2013

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Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.

Just curious did you play with top lane rengar at all?

with all the changes it looks like hes being forced into the jungle and his top lane presence looks to be getting worse and worse (bola strike skillshot , Bonetooth with butcher, no more armor or magic resist on roar if you get a AP top might as well just give turret up).


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Deychundei

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

On another note. If giving the BTN scaling AD per level, is a bit annoying to balance or scale satisfyingly how about coming at it from a different direction.

What if it were scaling Armor Pen. instead?


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndrydyr View Post
In Thanatos's case, as well as seemingly many other arguments, I think there's a conflict of expectation in Rengar's 'theme.' That is, different people expecting different things. I sense two major camps right now:

1. Rengar the Predator [the source of a large portion of the opposition to these changes]

These people largely play Rengar top. They love his feel and play as is, they like the assassin gameplay pattern, and they enjoy the level of homage Rengar pays to the Predator movies. They equate Rengar and The Predator together and feel that that is what he was intended to be.

2. Rengar the Pridestalker [Myself and a minority of 'Warning - opinion' - those who seem to be posting about it]

I see a tribal jungle cat. A freaking sentient Lion Man with a knife. marching through the jungle, pouncing from brush, and throwing down with the big bads for trophies. Extended battles, bouncing through treetops, hit and run. That's what I always expected when I saw Rengar.

Also. Yeah. It's altogether too easy to see someone raging and go "Oh god THIS **** again." It doesn't help that I'm *usually* [But definitely not always] right to dismiss it.

Case in point...



The game has 115ish champions. Not every mechanic will be unique. Just stop.
To be fair you can realistically only play Rengar top in higher levels of play - everytime I catch a stream of Rengar jungle, it ends badly. His low HP regen blocks him from being a worthy jungler - esp if you even poke at him in the jungle hes dead.

I don't see why you can't mix predator and pridestalker - there is one key similarity in both - they are both stalkers - and stalkers hide, theyre never too far away from their prey. In league sadly due to the structure of the lanes and brush being scarce in some key fight areas (i.e. mid lane) it is difficult to have this stalker/hiding attribute without stealth. You need it. Otherwise you're just a big man cat with furry ears basically saying in lane HEY IM GOING TO JUMP YOU SOON but.. YOU KNEW THAT so..YEAH RAWR GET READY OK?

Kha Zix is a perfect example where his stealth works and its awesome thematically...you know he's in the lane, you can see him, he can see you....but...wait hes gone? WHAT? oh wait there he is.. WHAT WAIT HES GONE AGAIN!?...its ok.. I'm ok..we're ok..I love you...you lov AHHHHhhrgghh.. -splat -

Kha Zix is..let's eat you piece by piece. One by one.. until theres nothing left. Its a sinister stalk/hunt.

Rengar is a little bit more brute force than this. He's less lets dissappear and reappear imo and more one big KYEAHHH and in the middle of your face with blood and gore everywhere, limbs being torn off, bones being cracked.

A brute-force strong stalker vs a sinister mind-game stalker.

So, how do we give stealth to a brute force stalker? You need to give him an extended stealth. Problem is, it lacks counterplay (suggested by some and not me). And the solution imo is one of two things

A) eve type stealth
b) warning indicator/nocturn ult type.
c) kha zix stealth

Personally I have no problem with the nocturn solution - with a catch - he gets the same length of time via movement speed that nocturn does to gap close a target at max range. So if it takes a nocturn 3 seconds to get to a target at max then it takes rengar 3 seconds and he gets whatever MS is required to do so.

Again.. another problem arises - he's too similar in ult to nocturn. IMO I see it so lets move to Eve stealth


- This I think is a fine solution - but the reality is again too close to eve - So we're essentially left in this very difficult state of Rengar's stealth design.

Kha zix stealth solution:
I think this is where we are headed - Something to the degree of Rengar uses R - gets 3 second stealth, then if he enters brush (visible or not) he gets another X seconds, this can occur over i.e. a 10-15 second duration and all during this time he has boosted ms.

Right now the issue is he's so fast and stealthy that he gets me instantly. Make it so that hes stealthed for awhile that he sees me and I can catch a glimpse of him.. even if I dont have a pink or an oracle and you've solved the problem.


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Furi Kuri

Member

08-20-2013

Hes still ignoring the real Rengar players that never wanted these changes. People that want him to stay the way he is live. Kind like what he did Karma players... Ignored them.


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toastwaffle

Senior Member

08-20-2013

I will quote someone on ROG to help me explain why I think Rengar's live ult is stupid as hell, thematically. I hope he doesn't mind.

Here's the quote:

"Rengar is a lion and you should feel like a lion stalking prey when playing him. A lion does not activate cloaking field and then pops up in the middle of a wildebeest herd instant killing an adult wildebeest. A lion stalks the wildebeest herd in the brushes, waiting to pounce on a isolated, preferably ill, old or young wildebeest."

The fact that you simply press R and walk up to your target actually is counter-intuitive to the whole "stalker" thing. More-often than not, it's simply a glorified gap-closer where the other guy doesn't even know it's happening. When jungling as Rengar, this is exactly how you would use it. You come from lane, press R, and then jump on someone. Similar ults like Nocturnes at least have a massive tell, but this has nothing. I feel more like a pridestalker when jungling as Lee Sin than as Rengar because I'd actually have to set up a position in lane push and wait for the perfect moment to safeguard my ally and then Q my target.

Remove the stealth, don't remove the stealth, I don't care. But the current stealth + movement speed bonus ult could definitely use a change.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

08-20-2013

VERY UNIQUE QUESTION INCOMING.

Have you talked with MWAB and Nome about the Dominion-specific version of Necklace (since no Hunter's Machete), and if so what kinds of changes to it do you think might be appropriate?

Key things to note (if not covered already by Nome/MWAB) are that there's no laning phase besides bot lane--changes will demand affecting his jungle presence or teamfighting. Also note that increased capture rate=out. (Priscilla's was unhealthy.)


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THUNDERMINE

Member

08-20-2013

Make his ult selectable (stealth for 5 seconds or movement speed boost while in brush plus movement speed x50% for 12 seconds.)

I dont like the nerf on his q train at all, too many champs can just step away from rengar, blink, or use their abilities to escape him in lane, so if you have to nerf the q train, when rengar jumps on his enemy the first stab should automatically be a 1 second stun or 50% slow, or a slight "bleeding effect" for 4 seconds so that some damage is guaranteed. It's going to be hard for a duelling rengar to jump and do a skillshot bola in the middle of a fight with minions around. He really does sound neutered and turned into a cheetah lol


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Alright, I know you're here and reading this stuff Scarizard so I'll ask again.

What's rengar's fall back pattern when he can't be an effective assassin? It seems all his changes are focused on making him less of a bruiser and more of a pure assassin. So what does he do when he falls behind a bit and doesn't have the survivablity/damage to kill squishies?


And since I'm here one other question. What kind of builds are you favoring on rengar, both in snowball and weak games?