A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Talohmiir

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by tabasco777 View Post
If putting a pink ward isn't enough to introduce counterplay to Rengar's ult currently, then how is removing the stealth, upping duration, and increasing the MS gain going to introduce more counterplay? It will just make him visible as he "rocketcats" onto somebody's face. Either the ult change is a straight nerf or you aren't accomplishing the job you set out to do.

A better option in this case would be making it so that his leap from stealth only applies as long as he is still invisible. Thus if the pink ward is down, he can't leap onto a carry until he leaves its radius. It makes sense, seeing as how his passive and its name really support the idea that he NEEDS to be unseen to leap onto somebody.
I think the only issue with this (which I think was mentioned way back in the early pages) Is that, the moment you lose that leap circle, you automatically know they can see you and that there is a pink nearby to destroy with oracles. This would pretty much counterplay a pink without spending money to do so. Not the worse thing in the world, but not healthy either. I'm still a huge fan of the idea that Rengar gains stealth from his ult in brush and for 1-1.5 seconds upon leaving. That way he would still need to utilize brush for that stealth. This means it's great for ganking and playing top lane, but not as viable (stealth-wise) when just in lane, in a fight where leaving lane to jump in a bush would end up in an ally death, or when you are within either base.


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DdC ThanatoZ

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Junior Member

08-19-2013

The ball is in my court at the moment but is 3 a.m here and I have a pretty busy schedule these next few days so before I respond to your post I'm going to give you some food for thought Scarizard, rework Tankgar, since according to you he is getting higher base damages,lower cooldowns, more damage overall on Q and a super speed boost as escape then how will you deal with Rengar once people realizes that playing him like in December 2012 is the way that is gonna pay off more, remember how you guys nerfed Rengar almost to the ground because of Tankgar in late 2012? well what is going to happen when this beast is out of the cage again, ravenous hydra would replace the worthless utility necklace, add a sunfire cape and a spirit visage to the mix and you have the perfect splitpusher, there is not going to be the problem of sticking to a target to kill it since the only thing he would have to do is scare them out of lane and keep going on, if enemy team comes just press R and run away, well I'm off to sleep.


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Mysnomer

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I don't want to come off as rude, but:

Elise's Cocoon
Jayce's Shock Blast
Kennen's Thundering Shuriken
Kha'Zix's Void Spike
Lee Sin's Sonic Wave
Rumble's Electro-Harpoon
I totally mean to come off as rude, because honestly, I've got no patience for you, but people seem to be upvoting this bad logic.

Elise has two other skills for ranged harass/last hitting, one of which is targeted, and that's in addition to her ranged auto attack.
Jayce has a ranged autoattack and shockblast can harass through minions with the aid of the gate, and sometimes without.
Kennen is, again, ranged, and can quickly harass with his lightning form, escape, then follow up with W.
KZ has an escape, and thus can play more risky, and his Void Spike is AoE.
Lee Sin has a similar escape as long as he times his harass with the minion waves or throws a ward down.
Rumble has a double cast on his harpoon, can harass through minions with Flamethrower, and escapes with the shield's speed boost, and all of these have incredibly short cooldowns. Incredibly short.

In other words, none of these characters had patterns dependent on their skillshots to harass or CS while on the defensive. They have other tools to grab the last hit on the caster minion at the back of the wave without taking a bunch hits from the enemy champion. Rengar players have presented these situation as key chances at a come back in a disadvantaged lane. It's like a way to...y'know, counter your enemy's play or something, but I guess that sort of dynamic isn't important to Riot's design. :P


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Grey Verve

Member

08-19-2013

I'm quite clear that you guys wanted Rengar to be viable but non-frustrating top lane/jungler.

Turning him into a top-pick champion is NOT a priority for you guys but often a rework is oft perceived as successful if the champion feels good to play, RELIABLE and have a good flair of power to them (e.g. Sejuani, Yi and arguably Trundle)

So, as a frequent jungler with these concerns in mind I'd like to ask you a few questions:

Will Rengar 2.0 increased base stats, btn changes and reworked abilities address make him a more comfortable and reliable champion to jungle with?

Current jungle Rengar with R and a free targeted snare is an amazing ganker. He's played most effectively as a top laner. I think this is due to a few key problems:

1. He's an assassin. Assassins typically has a high gold requirement more easily met in lane than in jungle.
2. He's incredibly frail. Early deaths, succesful jungle invasion or too many failed ganks will cause Rengar to lose presence in the game.
3. A below average duelist, low sustain due to W's long cooldown and a slow jungle clear makes Rengar very vulnerable levels 1-3, starting him out as a prey for other champions (May Nunu and Willump burn in hell)
4. Slow farmer. Probably even more so with the AS steroid toned down. Farming when set behind might be more difficult (although Madreds and the new BTN could have remedied this)
5. Rengar can't function as a bruiser/tank. He offers very little disruption in a teamfight and dies quickly

If Rengar 2.0's changes help remedy some of these issues that will certain help build his presence as a jungler.


Can Rengar 2.0 behave like a jungle bully once he hits 3?
Certain junglers (Lee Sin/Nunu) can have a seriously detrimental effect on certain other junglers who are particularly weak during their pre-6 phases (Amumu, Tryn, Hecarim, and I think Sejuani) by being able to steal buffs and kill them outright. Will Rengar 2.0 be more "equipped" to perform these jungle bullying tasks?

With base stats being buffed overall, are there any changes to his ability damage scaling?


Which assassin flavor is Rengar 2.0? Or is he a mixed flavor?

I just thought about this but assassins comes in two flavors:

a) The one with high base damage and poor scaling which deals more damage the earlier you strike and less reliant on items (Lee, Jarvan, Xin) but building damage has some risks with their role as fighters/initiators since they take a bit of time to deliver their damage. I felt that this flavor of assassin is more popular due to their fighter subtype, capability to disrupt and low itemization requirements.

b) Those who need some to a lot of damage items but scales so well they end up dealing incredible amounts of damage in very short times once itemized (Zed, Kha'zix, Diana, Yi). I think this flavor of Assassins tend to prefer lanes for their item gold or have fast and reliable jungle clears.

c) The "mixed" flavor, as I am going to put it, Rengar has above average base damage but needs his items to continue as a assassin. Lack of adequate disruption in teamfights and takes some time to hit murder-levels of damage means he needs to build some defenses but not solely as defense and missing damage items wouldn't let him do his job right (This reminds me of Darius, actually...)

Since some of his burst is shifted to becoming a melee DPS, is he able to "dismantle"/outduel other tank/bruisers?

Do you see any potential abuse opportunity for Rengar 2.0?


Whether it's AP Burst, god-like split pusher or 3HKO Extrodinaire, current Rengar has been abused many many times. I have a feeling that the new Rocket-Cat R is going to help him become a insane Nidalee/Yi/Shaco like split pusher. Is this an acceptable change or it maybe something that requires more toning?

Since R is going to be a persisting buff, what do you think of making Rengar stealth while Q is prepared and ult is on?

Allow me to elaborate. When Rengar presses Q he prepares it, gets a little visual effect and performs an empowered strike on the target. Currently he has 4 seconds before the Q time expires and Q goes on cool down. If his ult persists after the first auto attack/jump, you might be able to give Rengar stealth during this Q-ready time.

I thought it would be cool since he has some Kha elements, a fairly restricted mechanic and has a stealth on for a reasonable duration and can be useful for weaving around a teamfight. Adds a level of depth to his plays AND it fits well with the whole Q train thing too. Q stealth dive train.

Just make the window time to put Q on short like, 1-2 seconds. Something like Kha.


If you took some time to read this, I very much appreciate it and hope you'd share some thoughts about it.

...this took about an hour and a half to think about. Heh.


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Wyndrydyr

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DdC Thanatoz View Post
replace the worthless utility necklace

Utility is hardly 'worthless' just because it's not the way you want to play.


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8475121562315631

Junior Member

08-19-2013

Is Scarizard going to update the thread soon ? or should i go to sleep :P


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DdC ThanatoZ

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Junior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyndrydyr View Post
Utility is hardly 'worthless' just because it's not the way you want to play.
Is worthless because:
* extra ms in bushes is nothing since bushes are pretty scarce throughout the map, the ones that exist in the areas with higher concentration are small and your passive makes you jump on top of the target if you are in range and in a bush.
* reduced leap range is laughable, 150 extra range(right now in live) is barely a melee champion range and he is reducing it since it can be accessed earlier i think from 150 to 100 so it might as well not exist.
* extra duration in the ult, the ult is pretty much just a free ghost with this changes(nothing final yet) and why would you need extra duration since you are just going to get the ult up more times with the lower cooldown
* max stacks, more movement speed upon exiting bush, this doesn't make you stronger, just makes you harder to catch but then again you will have ult up more times with the reduced cd not to mention that this is at 14 stacks, too much work and risk for something that i will get every 30 seconds(if he is actually reducing the cooldown on ult, at the moment I get it to 40 seconds at lv 16 with max cdr)

Also I may have worded that incorrectly(I'm sleepy!!!), the necklace is worthless for lane Rengar and it isn't that appealing for jungle either, also bonetooth necklace is supposed to be a snowball item like mejais or Sword of the occult but with smaller benefits that stack(armor pen cdr at 3, ms at 6, extra leap at 9 and extra seconds on ult at 14), with this changes Rengar isn't a stronger duelist with a 3 stack necklace, he just gets "more" utility and sadly in this game utility is linked to tanks and if i wanted a utility jungler there are other 50 to pick that do a better job in that role than Rengar


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Uberphish

Senior Member

08-19-2013

So, apologies if this has already been mentioned at least once, but have there been any considerations towards making Rengar's ult stealth function like Eve's? You could potentially get the best of both worlds if you made the stealth range-specific, allowing an ulting Rengar to sneak by warded zones or around unwary enemies to get to this target, while retaining the possibility of escape if he starts with enough distance.

Unless this could be exploited in some way I can't imagine in a game-breaking way, it seems like a decent way to give the stealth-lovers their stealth without having to nerf the /rest/ of the ult back down to live levels again.


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R U Fukn Nuts

Junior Member

08-20-2013

I think that this new iteration of BTN is bad because aside from AD you get it's basically a Nidalee Passive on a rope, not quite what you'd expect after a long and successful hunt...


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ColdMiller

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

honestly thanatos, you get bonus move speed OUT OF COMBAT and in brush WHILE in combat, so thats not useless, it fits his kit especially with leap.



Also they are still testing bonetooth its not final so stop going off on a tangent before even a playable version is on PBE, right now its in Riot testing which means nothing is final and anything can be changed even more so.

Thats why I alugh at some of you who jump to conclusions without maybe trying to be calm about it.

i bet one day there will be a time where no one will alow a rework then league will become stale with older champs. haha


as for the complaints about bonetooth re read closely