A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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SuperiorZephyr

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Perhaps people should wait until the changes are playable before commenting further... I think pretty much everything has been said now.


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EnvyDragon

Senior Member

08-19-2013

I really like the stealthless ult idea. It just doesn't happen enough on Live that I go, "Oh, thank god I have stealth!" compared to how often I go "Oh, thank god I have an extra leap/true sight/max ferocity!" The ludicrous speed ult, combined with the true sight, means that it's probably for optimal use against enemies in jungle, which means you'll probably be able to attack from bush anyway.

And it's really cool for theme reasons, too. Ever seen a nature show where a lion/cheetah/whatever big cat races out of the tall grass at some prey animal? The prey sees the danger coming, turns to run, but the chase doesn't last long. I want to be that lion, you know?

Regardless, there are a few compromises that could be made for people who miss the stealth:
1) While Thrill of the Hunt is active, it can be activated again once to grant a short (2-sec) stealth duration. This could tie into the third tier BTN bonus - at 9 kills, your stealth duration increases.

OR

2) While Thrill of the Hunt is active, Rengar becomes invisible in brush, retaining the invisibility for X seconds after leaving the brush.

OR

3) The third tier BTN bonus grants him one of the above stealth options.

In each case, it adds some counterplay to the stealth, while simultaneously allowing the player to use it intelligently instead of LOL U CANT SEE ME I CAN SEE U.

(For the record, I disagree with people saying he needs to be invisible to be a Pridestalker. A "stalker" is just an individual who follows another person, often from hiding or from afar. The part of Rengar that gives him that "stalker" aspect is his ult vision, not the stealth. If you can see what they're doing, you can plan the engagement, so by the time they notice you on the attack it's already too late. Stealth doesn't need to be a part of that.)


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Mobilized Boat

Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zovea View Post
So how will changing Rengar into Master Yi fix him?
THANK YOU. Finally someone who realizes this.


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EnvyDragon

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zovea View Post
So how will changing Rengar into Master Yi fix him?
How is an 18-28 second out-of-combat speed boost + wide-area true sight at all equivalent to anything Master Yi has?

EDIT: Yes, I know Highlander provides a speed boost. That's literally the only similarity. It's like saying that Fiora is exactly the same as Irelia because they both have gapclosers they could potentially use twice in a row.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerensky287 View Post
How is an 18-28 second out-of-combat speed boost + wide-area true sight at all equivalent to anything Master Yi has?

Not sure if stupid or serious...either way...

Master Yi's ult gives him similar duration movement speed IN combat. No, he doesn't get "wide area" true sight, but wide area true sight is **** compared to the bonuses master yi gets and the fact that his ult can be chained to reset.

Suggested Rengar ult is like combining Hec's gap closer with Yi's speed ult but with none of the fear, utility or usefulness of either.


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hoxE

Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerensky287 View Post
How is an 18-28 second out-of-combat speed boost + wide-area true sight at all equivalent to anything Master Yi has?
I think it was a generic stab at the current iteration of melee ad carries in the game.


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Boldizar

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Will this rework include a fix for the disabled Q bug? I encounter this bug at least once in most games, and more than once in some games.

If anyone isn't familiar with this bug:
It only seems to happen after using an Empowered skill. Savagery becomes greyed out on the skill bar, as if it had just been activated but not yet triggered on attack. Pressing the skill button and autoattacking have no effect on this status, and it will remain disabled until re-Empowering with 5 Ferocity. I haven't tried to reproduce it intentionally, but it may arise from trying to use Empowered Q and Empowered W simultaneously.


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EnvyDragon

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn View Post
Not sure if stupid or serious...either way...

Master Yi's ult gives him similar duration movement speed IN combat. No, he doesn't get "wide area" true sight, but wide area true sight is **** compared to the bonuses master yi gets and the fact that his ult can be chained to reset.

Suggested Rengar ult is like combining Hec's gap closer with Yi's speed ult but with none of the fear, utility or usefulness of either.
Yi's ult is designed for use in combat and its duration is extended by hero kills. The speed buff and immunity to slows allows him to chase down enemies who are fleeing combat, as well as allowing him to close the gap. It's built around already being in or near a fight when you activate it; otherwise, half the advantages it provides you are wasted.

Rengar's ult is designed for use while APPROACHING combat because all of its benefits are lost the moment a fight starts. The true sight allows him to spot isolated enemies, while the movespeed buff and long duration ensure that he can make it there to take advantage of it. The ferocity buildup allows you to open with an empowered ability.

The only changes from Rengar's ult on live are 1) his stealth is gone, so he can't easily gank someone completely in the open (and why would you, since that means they're probably within range of allies/turrets?), 2) his movespeed and duration are DRASTICALLY increased, making his threat area substantially wider, and 3) the cooldown has been shortened, meaning he can basically become a gank machine post-6.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
Yeah, I've seen all those posts and guess what?

It's all rooted in the thought process that Rengar is an assassin first.

Which is NOT what Rengar is suppose to be, that's why Riot is changing him in the first place. So all those arguments DON'T ACTUALLY WORK.

If you look at Rengar as a fighter first and assassin second, stealth is not necessary.


Thematically, hunter aren't the same as assassins. They don't blend into the environment the same way.

They lurk outside of detectable range, then when opportunity presents itself, swoop in and dominate.
Dominate is similar to Kill (which is what assassins do) but not exactly the same.

Congratulations! you are now on the same page as Scarizard trying to turn Rengar into EXACTLY WHAT EVERYONE DOES NOT WANT.

ANOTHER GENERIC BRUISER.

GOOD JOB! Your argument is flawed because essentially you've stated "He's not an assassin...because Riot said so". So if Riot said AD Corki is a troll build because AP corki (mathematically) deals more damage than him, would that be true? Rengar isn't an assassin you say? So why are all his tags "assassin" and have always been assassin? When did Riot say that he isnt? When sir? He is tagged as an assassin, always has been.

Really? So the predator isn't an assassin? He doesn't blend into the environment? Are you high? Seriously, be honest? Do you smoke a lot of pot then come here and post things just to get downvoted and block any real discussion by suggesting there is none to begin with?

Ok let's go on the basis that Rengar isn't "the Predator". No problem, He's a Hunter. Ok. Hunter's have guns. No wait they have traps. No wait isn't Nidalee a hunter? What's a hunter? Hunter x Hunter? Is a Maverick hunter a hunter? So Rengar should have the Z saber now?

Are you getting my point here? Hunter is as defined by what context it was created in. Rengar was created in the context of being similar to the Predator. Within his context he also has a stealth - This stealth by extension has become his identity. If you take it away; he isn't Rengar. It isn't true to say he is still Rengar without it because it breaks the various molds (Storyline, In-game, Designer comments etc) with which Rengar was made and exists in now.


Also...
Dominate and kill? This analogy is literally the worst I have ever seen. These two words are not in any way analogous and my god whoever told you otherwise needs to be beaten with a bamboo stick.


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Vdragoon

Member

08-19-2013

man at all the baddies. if you have no stealth the enemy team sees you coming. they are prepared for you already. one cc once you leap in and it's over. so so stupid. stop with it's not the stealth. non-stealth version is great if this was a 1v1 game. IT'S NOT.