A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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SanoVX

Junior Member

08-19-2013

I started playing Rengar for a few days and like his gameplay very much but in my opinion he does not need such a big rework, because his mechanics are already very good the only problem I can see in his gameplay is that he either can only fight close to brushes or with his ultimate. If the enemy is not close enough to the brush he cannot do much. So I think the only buff he should get is the possibility to jump out of the brush on normal ground as well. With that he could jump from brush to brush and would be able to come close enough to the enemy for slowing or stunning him with his E. That would buff him especially as a jungler where his gangs before lvl 6 and without his ultimate would be much stronger but still balanced.

I would be very sad if the stealth of his ultimate would be removed because it makes so much fun to detect the enemy's carries in late game and killing them before they even realise what happened.


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Atyres

Senior Member

08-19-2013

I'm just wondering when we will hear back from Scarizard after the tidal wave of negative feedback on these changes =( I want my stealth cat to be a stealth cat and be a viable jungler again.


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

08-19-2013

I understand that no one likes to see their favorite champions changed, but I still feel like the changes are going in a good direction. I know that's not a popular opinion on G.D. but I stand by it.

When people are saying that their favorite part of playing Rengar was stealthing and killing enemy carries in the late game before they know what's happening to them, then we might have a problem. Sure, that's fun for the Rengar player, but is it healthy for the game?

I always thought Rengar's design niche was that of the ultimate hunter. While stealth was a tool that helped him fulfill that design niche, I don't think that ever meant that Rengar's identity was being a stealth champion. As long as Rengar retains a strong identity as the ultimate hunter I'm fine with some changes to make him more healthy to the game and much easier to balance.


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Atyres

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
I understand that no one likes to see their favorite champions changed, but I still feel like the changes are going in a good direction. I know that's not a popular opinion on G.D. but I stand by it.

When people are saying that their favorite part of playing Rengar was stealthing and killing enemy carries in the late game before they know what's happening to them, then we might have a problem. Sure, that's fun for the Rengar player, but is it healthy for the game?

I always thought Rengar's design niche was that of the ultimate hunter. While stealth was a tool that helped him fulfill that design niche, I don't think that ever meant that Rengar's identity was being a stealth champion. As long as Rengar retains a strong identity as the ultimate hunter I'm fine with some changes to make him more healthy to the game and much easier to balance.
You're thought process only makes ADC's go more glass cannon though and doesn't force actual counter play (which is wards, good tanking capability, and an ADC that can actually think). Taking away his stealth for "more counterplay" is just making him a watered down Yi, which is not healthy for the game. The game needs more diversity, not homogenization. That is part of what killed World of Warcraft, was when every single character became a slightly different flavor of the others.

Rengar's stealth needs to stay. ADC's need to learn how to cope with it, or there needs to be a meta shift. Game doesn't revolve around ADCs, but it sure is starting to feel like it with the nerfs to bruisers, the unwillingness to remove Frozen Gauntlet and BotRK from ADCs, and the nerfs to Assassins.


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Borand

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Hello Mr. Scarizard!
I've been a Rengar player for a while, I too could add to your conversation about Rengar.

First of all, there's a quite distinct pattern on Rengars skills:
Q- Offense
W- Defense
E- Utility
R- Playmaker skill (mix of offense, defense, and utility)

While it should be
Q- Offense
W- Offense
E- Offense
R- Playmaker skill

Part A: Theme
I think of Rengar as an offensive Fighter, that gets Frenzy when he's able to get to his target. He is no squishy, but no tank either. He is sturdy by nature (aka tanky), because he dwelves into fights with strong prey and he has to be able to withstand their damage.

Part B: Kit and Mechanics
Rengar was designed to be able to kill his target in about 1-2 seconds. Going with this direction though has lead to a kit that will allow Rengar to stay alive just enough to kill his target. This in turn lead to:

  • frontloading his entire damage (and steroid, and effectiveness) in only one skill (Q),
  • providing him an akward, temporary survivability tool (W) and
  • restricting his only gap-closer to his ultimate and brush.
In this kit, his slow is a bit akward, since it isn't either a nuke, or a tool that will reposition Rengar. He also has a really situational passive.

Design disparity: Rengar's intended playstyle closely resembles that of an asssassin. As opposed to the latest assassin releases and remakes though, Rengar has NO ways of getting out of the fight, reliable gap closers, and deals all of his damage through his autoattacks (melee ADcarry playstyle). He should be repurposed as a high offense, medium defense character.

Now, lets break his flaws down, one by one.
Frontloading the damage and offense on 1 skill
Rengar has only 1 skill that *essentially* deals damage, and that is his Q. His W provides him a little bit of survivability for a very short amount of time and deals next to no damage, and his E doesn't deal *that* much damage, nor does it allow for a follow-up if Rengar hits it mid+ range. E truly is a suboptimal skill currently.
If he's supposed to be an offensive character, the offense should be split among his entire kit.


Akward survivability:
His W offers him no stats when it doesn't hit something, nor does it grant ferocity. With its current iteration, when being kited you should be able to use this skill to increase your survivability and reach your target. But right now W is essentially restricting Rengar from having better base stats.

Only gap-closer is on ultimate and brush
Rengar suffers highly from the kiting melee syndrome. If he isn't near brush when he engages and where he lands, he can easily get kited and that invalidates his kit. If he is intended to be played as an all in, either bursty or sustained damage character, he should have more reliable ways of commiting to a target.

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.


Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.

Part C: Bonetooth Necklace
First off, I really like the fact that you are looking at Bonetooth Necklace. I never particularly liked this item, because of its' unreliability and weird mixture of stats it provides. It's main problem is that it's a gamble item, that, in order to be in max effectiveness, requires you to not die once. If you could lock the number of stacks somehow, that would make the item decent.

I was thinking of an iteration where you can upgrade your BTN in the store with gold, but I'm not sure yet. You gain ministacks by killing minions and monsters. After reaching a certain amount of ministacks, you can upgrade your Necklace by offering gold. Killing a champion can make the next upgrade free, or immediately upgrade your necklace.

Let me put an example:
You buy BTN. You cannot upgrade it until you reach 24 stacks. You farm minions and monsters, and once you reach 24 stacks, the 1st upgrade becomes available, which you can buy for 270 gold. Next upgrade becomes available at 48 stacks. Killing a champion can bring you to 48 stacks, add 24 regardless of what your current number of stacks is, automatically upgrade the item to its next level, etc.

What do you think of these? Please give them careful thinking before (if) replying.
I hope I get to discuss with you.

(Repost from previous page)
(Good luck with your career at Riot Wav3Break!)


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RYKK888

Recruiter

08-19-2013

I've seen a couple posts similar to this now, and had an idea about his ult.

What if Rengar's ult gave him a an initial 3 second stealth that would refresh every time he entered a bush (maybe only 2 secs on the refreshes)? That way he would still be able to get to the backlines, disengage/re-engage, and would have some amazing juke potential in the jungle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BatchOfDeath View Post
saw an idea of giving rengar a short burst of stealth after a kill while his ults up, i like that idea.
I like this ^^

Or something crazier: how about a jump reset on a kill? Kha'zix, Tristana, and Katarina all have similar mechanics. Rengar could get a free jump within 3-5 seconds of a kill.


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Tsuusetsu

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borand View Post
Hello Mr. Scarizard!
I've been a Rengar player for a while, I too could add to your conversation about Rengar.

First of all, there's a quite distinct pattern on Rengars skills:
Q- Offense
W- Defense
E- Utility
R- Playmaker skill (mix of offense, defense, and utility)

While it should be
Q- Offense
W- Offense
E- Offense
R- Playmaker skill

Only gap-closer is on ultimate and brush
Rengar suffers highly from the kiting melee syndrome. If he isn't near brush when he engages and where he lands, he can easily get kited and that invalidates his kit. If he is intended to be played as an all in, either bursty or sustained damage character, he should have more reliable ways of commiting to a target.

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.


Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.
Congrats, you have turned rengar from a burst assassin with -some- survivability in teamifghts, into a melee ADC, which are no longer viable in the game, with no defensive skills, who will dump all his gold into BTN. Karma would be proud.


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Tsuusetsu

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Here are my ideas on Rengar


Q - Keep Q as is, but I enjoy the thought of the 'Q train' But only if it goes though once. (5 ferocity) Q Q W E Q.

W - Keep W as is. The Armor and Magic resistance is very important for him to do his job.

E - Skillshot is an interesting Idea. Id love to play test it and see if I like the change or not. Throwing it without a target is nice, but it would have to fly though minions, so I can harass champions. But that also gives him less wave clear....hard choice

R - My idea for this is simple. Give him a nice speed boost, and stealth him for 2-3 seconds on activation. This allows him to gank well, but not get away from any situation when getting ganked himself. When you run into lane for a gank, hit it just as you leave brush, and jump on them while in stealth. If you dont manage the jump, the stealth runs out, and they see you, and are able to react.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzokuken View Post
Go read about Predator's lore, then look back at Rengar, then go watch Predator movies, then look back at Rengar again, then you can even go check Predator videogames, then come look back at some more Rengar, specially on his weapons (look at all of them), look at his ultimate effects, and sounds, specially on his skin (Headhunter Rengar)

after that, you can come and check your post, and feel stupid for saying that "Q combos are his iconic part"
This is exactly right, rengar IS for all intents and purpose supposed to be a predator.
He is supposed to attack quickly and viciously with surprise attacks, and then vanish into the brush... to ambush his next victim.

he isn't a "wild knifecat" he's a lion and a hunter. a stalker and a predator... not a cheetah chasing a gazelle


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Uuni

Senior Member

08-19-2013

How about taking a little inspiration from Slark's ultimate from dota?

When Rengar uses his ultimate he camouflages himself and becomes a mobile pile of leaves. He's untargetable by autoattacks and targeted spells because he's technically stealthed while still being vulnerable to AoE and skillshots like any other stealthed unit. He gets a hefty movement speed increase while moving around with his ulti active and can leap out like he can from regular brushes. If the enemy has stealth detection they can target him obviously, it's just a stealth that gives the enemies a little heads-up that their life-expectancy just dropped by a significant amount. This would eliminate the pattern of 'oh nice, Rengar was here, I wish I knew that before I got killed' while still providing him a way to move around the battle if his enemies aren't prepared for him. His splitpushing wouldn't be quite as safe as the enemies on the chase could see where he's heading and use their light bindings and whatnot to the rustling pile of leaves that's trying to get away and still giving Rengar a fighting chance if he wants to get away because a mechanic like this would not require a fade-in time for the stealth to happen

If you wanna go wild you can make the visual disappear completely while he's in a brush for some nice jukes and even more lethal ambushes or let him throw out bola strike from his personal camouflage without breaking it

At the very least it would be really cool to see a pile of leaves with a blue and orange eyes glowing from beneath move around